Before you Comment…
In an effort to reduce the number of times we have to repeat ourselves in the comment thread, these posts will offer answers to some of the most common arguments against exposing or challenging false teachers and false prophets. So please, spare us the knee-jerk responses, because we’ve already answered most of them. If you find that your questions or concerns have still not been addressed, then feel free to post it here. Until then, please interact with topics we are addressing. It’ll save us all carpal tunnel.
Thanks.
244 Comments
Great work. I had never heard of Steve Schultz, just starting to do some research. I have a comment and a very important question about Rick Warren. First of all you describe his research for PDL as “Scripture shopping”. It seems that his shopping cart more often than not stops in the Eugene Peterson isle. Also you quote him as saying he is not interested in converting Jews because he has enough Christian souls for him to deal with. IT WOULD BE OF GREAT SERVICE TO ME PERSONALLY AND THE MINISTRY I AM A PART OF, TO BE ABLE TO DOCUMENT THAT. WILL YOU HELP ME?
Stan Lessin, Minneapolis
Stan Lessin,
Try this,
http://midwestoutreach.org/blogs/?p=11
This is a very lengthy interview and it was linked in the same paragraph as per the question you asked above. It might be in here.
http://pewforum.org/events/index.php?EventID=80
Keith,
Thanks for the excellent artice on ways that people twist the scripture to come to wrong conclusions. I just wish I would have read it 30+ years ago when I was starting on my journey to understand the truth. God bless,
Jim
I’ve been checking out your site for a while and trying to get a good sample of the commentary. While you have legitimate gripe about some current ministries, overall, this is just awful what you are doing and I sense an anti-christ spirit over much of it. It seems that an objective, biblically sound objection is presented, but then your ___________(arrogance, bitterness, divisiveness, self-righteous, emotionalism, etc.) agenda takes over in an attempt to humiliate the inidividual or leader instead of just addressing the issue at hand.
Some of he contributors are quick to call things “out of context”. There are two ways to read and apply scripture: 1) by the biblical account and 2) the principle that is being communicated and the nature of God displayed by the passage and how that applies to our relationship at this time. While I will agree, many of the high-profile inidividvuals you have mentioned are guilty of that, there are cases where your attempt at dispensing humilation seems to override objectivity and godly correction in a spirit of love.
This may be a lot to ask. I dont know any of your personally and I dont know how long you all have been doing this, but I would really encourage you to assess your motives. Maybe you will, but realistically, based on what I’ve seen, you (bloggers) are excessively offended whenever anyone challenges any blogger in any way, so I can only say that at least I spoke what I saw and felt. The Bible tells us we will have to have to give account for every careless word, so I challenge you to think on that. Now, no one in Heaven has ever asked my opinion, but as it stand, I would be terrified to stand before Jesus based on the overall message of this site. (and you will tell me it’s to educate people about false teachers and doctorine….and there is some of that, but not near as much as you are mislead to believe.)
bagnast:
“While you have legitimate gripe about some current ministries, overall, this is just awful what you are doing and I sense an anti-christ spirit over much of it.”
An anti-christ spirit is spoken of in 1 John 4:1-3, “1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.”
If this is what you’re referring to, please explain where you got this impression.
My, my bagnast it would seem from your comments that if we are indeed what you say we are, then it’s a case of the pot calling the kettle black. I refer you to such adjectives as as “arrogance, bitterness, divisiness, self-righteous, emotionalism” etc., that you’ve leveled at us. How, pray tell is that “just addressing the issue at hand.”? Are you exempt from taking your own advice?
You’ve got to be a follower of the modern prophetic movement, because your comments are all so suspiciously the same, never addressing the real issue but just trying to shame the folks who are geneuinely looking for truth. I’m seriously wondering if they don’t give you folks a script to read from.
But call it, or us, whatever name you want. When I personally stand before Christ I want to sincerely apologize to Him in person for even taking these false prophets seriously for one minute.
bagnast, you wrote:
“…based on what I’ve seen, you (bloggers) are excessively offended whenever anyone challenges any blogger in any way, so I can only say that at least I spoke what I saw and felt.”
Could you please cite one evidence of this?
I certainly see/read frustration from regular bloggers when individuals come in and comment using words like “I think” or “I feel” without backing up any of their viewpoints with scripture or actually refuting the subject at hand directly. The few times when outsiders came in and used scripture in their opposing viewpoint, then meaningful dialogue was accomplished. Unfortunately, this has rarely been the case.
This is what this blog is about: exposing teaching which uses convoluted scripture as its “source” or justification — or, even worse, using something totally made up with nothing to back it up with at all! Opposing viewpoints are encouraged and welcomed. In fact, some regular bloggers disagree on some points with other regular bloggers. This is quite alright if each side shows scriptural backup.
It may help you if you’ll click on the “Defeating Defeaters” in red above just after the word “Thanks” at the end of the “Before You Comment…” post.
First of all, I was making a general comment about the sampling of posts I have been reading for an extended period of time. I made mention of that, so my intention was not to go back and quote section by section. Frankly, this site is not worth that kind of time. You proved my point instantly. I got labeled “a follower of the modern prophetic movement” as a knee-jerk reaction. Beautiful. That individual exposed their heart for what it is and what I fear others are operating out of as well.
I just have to ask. Do you have to be a certain kind of Baptist to post on this site???
Im non-denom and I post here often. Did you just not lable us there?
Also, you say you ’sense the spirit of antichrist’– Is that not namecallling as well?
Look, I was involved in this very movement, as most have been here. Things were just NOT adding up when compared to Scripture. This causes MAJOR pain in our hearts to have to sort thru the junk, lose most of your friends, and go back to the basics of Scripture. Its extremely difficult. Our main objective is warning.
It is BIBLICAL to hate the things the Lord hates– and to love what He loves. He loves truth and hates lies and evil. Much of what is taught in this movement is total trash– and we are COMMANDED in Scripture to test everything. Its not just something to do in our spare time.
If you think anything here is hateful, please, like it was asked before– show us who was hateful. This is text conversation— emotions can be construed any way the reader wants.
I certainly can get fired up when I see someone blatently taking Scripture out of context to fit their personal theology. It leads people astray and I know the pain FIRST HAND at how much that hurts. It can lead people far enough away that they dont even know the saving grace of the Lord anymore because everything is about their experiences. ALSO, if someone is deeply entrenched in this movement and they finally catch a glimmer of ‘that was against Scripture’, it can cause them to abandon Christianity altogether— like I almost did.
Now, if you think that spouting false doctrine is well and good and we should embrace it, you can go on being willingly ignorant of the truth. But we will not stop because someone thought it was hateful to bring the utter blasphemies of these people into the light.
Bagnast,
Before the he-said; she-said starts up in full on this thread (which is to say to all the regulars: “be courteous”), can you please restate what it is you’re worried about? I admit that the discussion can get heated here. Comments can get out of hand.
At the same time, Keith and I do our best not to mince words. Jesus used very strong language regarding false teaching as did the disciples. He also used metaphor, sarcasm and other conventions of human communication. If we can’t use the language and its devices, how do we communicate? One thing I am personally against is the post-modern, politically-correct attitude that says we have to walk on eggshells. Keith and I are not coming down on people for having opinions, but we disagree (very strongly at times) with those opinions.
-d
bagnast:
“I just have to ask. Do you have to be a certain kind of Baptist to post on this site???”
I’m non-denom; and, quite a few regulars here are non-cessationist charismatics. If you were to really read the posts you would see that.
Is there something wrong with Baptists? It sounds like you just want to complain.
bagnast:
And, you’ve not even answered my question regarding your feeling of a “sense of an anti-christ spirit.” I asked in a fairly “politically correct” was as this is a pretty serious “sense” for you to have about someone or a group.
I’m just curious as to what bagnast defines as a “’sense of an anti-christ spirit.” Is that the same as a jezebel spirit?
These are often labels put on folks who disagree with the theology of the prophetic movement, by followers of the modern day prophets.
I too am waiting for some specific instances of “the anti-Christ’ spirit, because that spirit would obviously have to be an anti-the Way, the Truth, and the Life spirit, and i see just the opposite of that on this site.I certainly am not an ‘anti-christ spirit. ” That’s certainly a pretty serious accusation to put on a fellow Christian even if you do disagree with them.
The last time I checked, the “spirit of anti-Christ” had nothing to do with people and how they were spoken about. Scripture speaks of the spirit of anti-christ denying that Jesus is come in the flesh.
1 John 4:
2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
So to me this is a quick knee-jerk unscriptual reaction to something that is not “creme puff” filled and “lovey dovey” to everyone and everything. Just my 2 cents once agian…
For the record, Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and He is from God.
There, I said it.
I suspect what bagnast meant by anti-christ is “anti-annointing.” I think that was another thread somewhere on this site.
>“I just have to ask. Do you have to be a certain kind of Baptist to post on this site???”
Gee, I’m Assemblies of God, and was a card-carrying Charismatic from 1971 until a few years ago, when I was asked by the pastor to stop teaching people to not lay hands suddenly, and to stop teaching against charismatic divination (reading people and calling in prophecy). I headed up the altar ministry team (MORE LORD, FIRE…), led an intercessory prayer (and worship) meeting, home group leader, sunday school teach, worship team member…
I guess if that’s a “ceratin kind of Baptist:, then yes. I do believe in baptisim by immersion, if that counts.
Oh, my!!!!!!
Bill wrote:
“For the record, Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and He is from God.”
And, I’ll add: Jesus Christ was/is the Word made flesh and He’s fully God (as part of the Trinity along with the Holy Spirit), yet was fully man when he was here in the flesh. I think that about covers the “anti-christ spirit” charge.
i bet most of these people go to the traditional religious setting. where no signs wonder or miricals take place
What if those who go to the traditional setting (and what’s wrong with that setting) and to them the “signs, wonders, and miracles” in their eyes is seeing someone recieve Christ as their personal savior?
In that one act alone there is the “sign” of the saving act of Christ, the “wonder” of a changed life from one of death due to sin to life eternal with Christ and the “miracle” that ultimately they are healed from the sting of death and will be with the Lord where there wil be no more sickness or crying.
Is this not what the whole thing is about? The exaltation of Christ our Lord for what HE DID and not what we want, the all about me, give me, give me the signs wonders and miracles to satify my need?
Hey if you like that traditional seting thats fine. I just think its funny how when you get a group a servents together enjoying the presence of God. Someone with a religious mindset is always quick to criticize it. And this happens quite often. Were labeled the Holly Rollers we love Jesus to much were to spiritual we take it to the extream, i just think its funy that we get labled for holly riding the Holy Ghost & wanting so much more of God, then we get made fun of because we see sombody get healed on the spot, or an addiction broken in 2 seconds, or sombody get laid hands on and the power fo God moves them. Jesus wanred us this persecution would take place but id expect it to be from the people of this world. not people that claim to be a part of the body, if you Put God in a box and thinks He no longer does this or that and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit no longer operate thats fine. But dont step on your brother or sisters toes by persecuting the way they serve God. we are all bought with the blood and we all serve the same true mighty God. we should encourage one another lift one another up, more importantly focus this energy towards reaching the lost revealing the great truth to them
iIhave been doing research for 5 years now serving Christ body in sharing scripture to show clearly the deceptions and counterfit manifastitins of the elijah list prophets. I have been putting together a book with documants. Been searching for an open letter of concern written by 5 pastors to patricia king in their concern that she was exibiting new age principals. the letter was public, written i 2005, yet with much effort I cannot find who wrote it nor what it said. I was able to find open letter of concern to binkel. I am look for the one to Patricia king of extreme prophetic. If you have info to share I would be greatful.
Hey Charlene– have you looked using her former name? Pat Cocking?
And also, I am interested in this book you’re writing
Shawn,
There are so many bogus statements in your previous post it is hard to know how to respond.
Let’s start with your last comment first. It is difficult to see how anything at most of these events has anything to do with reaching the lost when the gospel is so rarely shared.
Secondly, disagreement is not persecution. I tackle this issue in the defeaters section which you obviously didn’t read before you posted despite our request that you do so. No one is persecuting you. You don’t get to claim martyr status.
Additionally, I’ve never heard anyone make fun of the prophetic movement for any true healings that take place. We do however have a problem with many of the over-stated, unsubstantiated claims of the movement.
We respect your zeal. But we are commanded to be zealous for that which is true not just that which is emotional and feels good.
It’s obvious from your writing style that you are very young. I pray that as you mature you come to a more solid foundation.
And, as Iwant pointed out, the greatest miracle and sign is when one comes to faith in Christ and is brought from spiritual death to life, nothing else compares.
-k
I wasn’t going to make any comments about Shawns post but after reading it again a couple of times somethings did begin to attrack my attention and bug me.
“enjoying the presence of God”
I’ve heard this and similiar statements many times over. And most of the time the way this is used has more to do with our “pleasure” with the presence of God then with His attributes. It’s as if we go to God like we’re going to a convience store for our free refill of coffee…we don’t take time to know the cleak becasue all we want is our coffee. Thank you, have a good day and goodbye. All that is important is we got our coffee. Well God is treated much the same way…all that is importing is that I get a great wonderful goofy giddy tickley feeling that lets me know how much I’m loved or God does something sepcial just for me or in some cases, God does something special through me. Or something along those lines. Knowing God isn’t as important as what I can walk away with saying God did for me. I know of someone that is involved in the movement and at her church she calls experiencing going to the alter there “like God’s chocolate.” As if God only shows up to satisfy and please us!
“Were labeled the Holly Rollers we love Jesus to much were to spiritual we take it to the extream, i just think its funy that we get labled for holly riding the Holy Ghost & wanting so much more of God, then we get made fun of because we see sombody get healed on the spot, or an addiction broken in 2 seconds, or sombody get laid hands on and the power fo God moves them.”
I think it’s a wonderful thing when someone is healed, delivered, saved, and filled! However, what I have a problem with is the end does not justify the means. Sometimes, God does things for people simply because of who He is and not becasue of what we’ve done or who we are. Therefore no credit can be taken for ourselves when God does do something. Hence, God moving for someone else does not justify us or what we’re doing.
Shawn,
Sadly it sounds like you will be on the front row when the “AntiChrist” begins his Signs and Wonders Tour…. Signs and wonders do not define the validity of a church service however people hearing the truth through the Scriptures and giving their hearts to Christ does. These are the only miracles you should be interested in. Yes I believe in healings and raising my hands in honor and humility to the Lord and singing and shouting my thanks to the Lord but Paul tells us many times this should be done in order and respect. We are all brothers and sisters here we just truly care about your walk and pray that you will seek the Lord through His Word and not through ministries who have added obstacles to the simple Truth of the Gospel.
May I ask you a question? What was and is to this day your biblical reponse to the Toronto blessing in the early 1990s? Do you judge it the way you do Choo Thomas’ experiences with the Lord?
I once felt, what I am picking up from you. We were going to a church that taught everything needs to be decent and in order which we agreed with at the time, than Jesus lead us to meeting with the simple message of coming all the way home. My husband and I realized we hadn’t done that. After those meetings something started stirring in our whole family. I had never been brought down by the power of God before that meeting. I had seen others go down and remember judging them for that. Didn’t understand why God would have to do that to people. My in-laws brought Toronto videos and my husband and I walked out of the room. The way the people were being ” hit” by the Lord offended us. Well after those meetings something happened that even our pastor saw. He (at 1st) wanted to know what had happened. I was slain in thespirit there, as I was at the alter before the Lord I saw and felt my womb rise, I wept like have never wept, I wailed
Over the last 12 yrs God has done mighty things in my life. I have walked thru much inner healing and deliverance.
It sounds like to me that you gentlemen are where I was 12 yrs ago. I to judged what I did not understand. I judged those who shook, cried with out control, slain in the spirit, groaning, moaning and crunching on the floor during times of reverant alter calls. Boy did God show me a thing or 2. I have a pea for a brain. His thoughts are not my thoughts and ways are not my ways. As I started crying out for more of Him things started changeing. I was slain for the 1st time, i groaned and moaned, I saw and felt my womb rise like a loaf of bread. ( that really freaked me out.) There were stirrings that I can’t even describe. My body shook violently and my head at times would shake back and forth so fast that it amazes me i don’t have kneck problems. I have danced like i have never danced. He uses my body in dance to war in the spirit. David danced and was undignified. It offened his wife very much. God showed me how true the scripture was about judge not or you will be judged. Everything i had judged others for, I now have done. The Lord says that you’ll know His by the fruit. Well I have fruit i never dreamed of having. I am a free woman from a lot of my past. i agree that it is a great and very important thing when someone comes to Jesus, but it is also a powerful thing to see the other reasons He came and died for happen. Such as heal the sick and set the captive free from the chains of the enemy. Going back to the ” womb rising”, the Lord spoke to me that i was an intercessor and He was going to birth things in the spirit with me. Well a person has to be a totally yeilded vessel to say yes to that. I wasn’t even sure what that meant at the time. All i knew is i wanted more and wanted to go all the way home with Him. Jesus offened many in the way He preached, healed and lived. As a sister in the Lord i want to encourage you to be very careful in judgeing things such as what our sister Choo Thomas has experienced. God is doing things just like Choo with little children. God wants us to take seriously the reality of heaven, hell and His return. I don’t see how you can attack her experience and judge her like you have when she had scripture to back up a lot of her visitation and a lot of what she saw has been what many in the past have seen and experienced when Jesus took them to heaven. To me it is just more conformation to other testamonies. Don’t try to be so knowledgeable that you lose your child like hearts. Remember who didn’t recognized JESUS when He came the 1st time. My prayer for you is that God would show you in the divine way He showed me that if a vessel is truely looking for Him no matter the cost. He will show up. Believe me, pride is less an issue in my life these past 12 yrs. BEAWARE OF JEALOUSY, FEAR AND PRIDE. THEY ARE VERY BLINDING TO THE BODY OF CHRIST. I have decided that the things that aren’t of God will not stand. He will judge what may sister Choo and others like her do. Because if it is true what she has shared then i won’t be under the judgement of
God for judging her. I am called to judge by the fruit. I felt while reading her book, she was a very humble child of God and felt very unworthy for what He had placed before her to do. As far as the” special daughter” thing, well He thinks i am pretty special too, because in worship He has called me special, beautiful and His very own. We are all special to Him, so i encourage you to let that one go. He knows what each one of us need to hear. Maybe you wouldn’t want or need Him to speak to you that way. We need to lift eachother up, not tear down. Pray for Choo and others like her, but if things start happening as was said, I pray you will be willing to repent. Did you agree with the Toronto blessing? Do you feel Bill Wiese is false? (23 min. in hell) How about Mary K Baxter? If there is good fruit in thier lives, something must be attached to Jesus. If not, He will spank His children.
My prayers and thoughts are with you and your families.
love always in JESUS,
your sister in Christ, LAURA
Lee and Laura,
Are you the same person? Your writing is so similar.
I will respond to your question with a request. Please show me the scriptural justification for the occurrences at Toronto.
How can you justify roaring, barking etc. from the Bible?
-k
Laura, You sound like where I was twelve years ago. Yep, those spirits ARE seductive. Anything that feels that right can’t be wrong, eh? I have no jealousy, and I have been humbled by being wrong in the style of worship and the experiences I used to seek. Our God is a Holy God. Worship Him in Spirit and Truth. If you are impressed by “big name” christianity, and believe whatever and whoever comes down the pike, then I truly feel sorry for and pray for you. Look up “the fruit of the Spirit”. I pray that the Lord will open your eyes. This isn’t legalism, it’s TRUTH.
And I agree with you Keith, the writing style is very similar. But to be fair, when one of the adherents of the modern signs and wonders (as though twitching and falling down or barking or crowing is a “sign” or “wonder”
is challenged, they all tend to react in this very way. Not stopping to take a breath (as it seems) Just one accusation against another. Telling us to judge not while judging us, ad nauseum.
Sister…READ ALL OF THE BIBLE, not just the parts that your seers and novelists put in their books.
I know someone who was dealing with a demon possesed person once. One of the manifestations of this devil was a huge swelling of the abdomen while it was on its way out.
Just a thought for ILaura.
mark jr.
p.s. I’m guessing that Lee and Laura inspired the new post on cliche`s that Keith wrote?
Charlene,
Have you found the letter of concern to Pat King? I would be very interested in reading it. Also, can you send the link or tell me how to find the letter of concern to Binkel? I have just started my research and those items would be very interesting to read. I have been under these teaching for over ten years and didn’t even know. Obviously that is the result of my lack of knowledge with the Bible, I don’t deny that. But, I came under these things as a young teen, have recently started researching and no longer will I worship a false God. My salvation is everything to me and my family.
Thank you! AZ
Laura of Lee:
You said:
“It sounds like to me that you gentlemen are where I was 12 yrs ago. I to judged what I did not understand. I judged those who shook, cried with out control, slain in the spirit, groaning, moaning and crunching on the floor during times of reverant alter calls. Boy did God show me a thing or 2″
What you will find on this blog is not what you said above about being where you were 12 years ago. You will find the reverse. We have all been where you are now and have come out of it.
After measuring everything with scripture and getting a wake-up call from the Holy Spirit, I found along with many others here that I was hugely deceived and dabbling in false, scriptural teaching, ie. manifestations of the spirit, calling intercession a “gift” (unscriptural since it is not listed as a gift)
I warn you from experience–repent, and do not give yourself over to these practices anymore. Don’t judge those who want to measure things with the scriptures. You are not doing that yourself and you need to start doing that right away. Step away from false teaching and doctrine and you will find that the God that you are worshipping at the Toronto Blessing is not the God of the Bible. The Jesus you are worshipping there is not the Jesus of the Bible, and the Spirit you are receiving there is not the Holy Spirit–it is another spirit masquerading as the Holy Spirit.
Being “slain” in the spirit again, is not a scriptural phenomenon.
I have had first hand experience with the Toronto blessing since I do not live far from there. It has been condemned even by the late Derek Prince who was very connected with some of the Vineyard people. Read his take on the Toronto Blessing on the web. (I think it’s at http://www.propheticschool.com) Anyway you can find it easily if you look. Derek Prince condemns the Toronto Blessing as a “false revival” where the holy spirit is not operating, but another spirit is operating.
I challenge you to do some research and measure your experiences up to the Bible. You will find them wanting.
God bless you
Correction!
Change “scriptural” to “unscriptural” in the quote below:
“After measuring everything with scripture and getting a wake-up call from the Holy Spirit, I found along with many others here that I was hugely deceived and dabbling in false, scriptural teaching, ie. manifestations of the spirit, calling intercession a “gift” (unscriptural since it is not listed as a gift) ”
Sorry!
Does anyone want to know why over the past three to four generations the percenatge of people claiming to be Christians has declined dramaticly? Part of it has to do with what everyone has been doing on this website. This is also the answer to why there are so many different religions: different interpretations of the Bible. Read the whole Bible and study the whole Bible and stop judging and condemning. John 3:17, go look it up.
Luke 9:23 says~ “And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. ”
Jesus also said:
Mat 10:38 “And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. ”
The point I am trying to make with all of this is we need to stop arguing with fellow Christians because the more we argue the more people are going to look at us and not see a point in being a Christian. People who are questioning Christianity are watching what we as Christians do. All of this arguing between ourselves is NOT helping them choose to be Christians if anything it is hindering their decisions even more. In order to conquer our world we must first conquer ourselves.
Lindsey Love
Lindsey Love:
So, when reading the “whole bible” then what are to do with false prophets/teachers? There are warnings all over the NT by Jesus himself and Paul. In the book of Jude we are told to “contend for the faith.” We are told to “expose the darkness.”
Are false prophets/teachers really Christians? If their own doctrine does not line up with the Word of God (”test the spirits” 1 John 4:1-6) then the answer has to be NO!
I can’t see with these huge planks in my eyes! Can you?
To some who are confident of their own righteousness and look down on everybody else, I tell this parable: “Two men went to pray, one a creator of this website and the other (take your pick of any of the people they critique on this website). The creator of this website stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—those I critique on this website—or even like those who post comments on this website. I do all this research to make sure I get me facts straight and all to expose the “truth” so none are deceived.’
“But other men stand at a distance and do not even look up to heaven, but beat their breasts and say, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
“I tell you that those who ask for mercy, rather than those who condemn others, go home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
Do you really think John Piper would associate himself with anything you write on this website?
I’ve said too much! Ahh! God help us all!
P.S. You need to know that the name of your website exposes a fundamental flaw in your hermeneutic! You must ask yourself why the Pharisees and teachers of the law were looking for a miraculous sign! This, along with Jesus’ response has nothing to do with anything I have read on your website! It would seem that this fundamental flaw in your approach would render your entire existence meaningless since by it you undermine and contradict everything you claim to uphold! The scriptue cannot mean anything to us that it did not mean to the original recipients!!!
Thanks for um, nothing. Before you go making blanket accusations about pride and self-righteousness on our part, take a look at this post:
http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/2006/11/30/is-this-pride/
Prideful? Hardly. I’m a sinner. I’ve squared with that. Now I’m helping others. Does it make me proud? No it makes me humbled before an all-powerful God. That he would use a broken vessel like me. A rotten filthy sinner who should have been smote at conception.
Also, Jesus’ accusation against the Pharisees is that they sought a sign from heaven to prove he was God. He died, was buried and raised three days later, just like Jonah. The prophetic movement systematically and consistently marginalizes this great truth. Ah, there’s the parallel! And I think it’s the same meaning the original recipients would have gotten out of it. If you want to talk about taking things out of context, why don’t you look at some of the teachings we’ve examined?
Oh, and have you taken the plank out of your eye yet? Otherwise by your own faulty logic, you shouldn’t be saying anything to us.
In Christ,
-d
Plankeye,
I hope you feel better today. Someday if you would like to discuss real ideas and truths, stop by.
Peace,
-rob
Plankeye (ah, the courageous anonymous),
You cannot be completely unconscious of the cognitive dissonance here, can you? Whilst damning Drew for judging, you are… judging him, no?
Seriously, grow up and engage in an adult conversation, or go away.
Additionally, do you know that John Piper has spent vast amounts of time and energy (in his books, articles and sermons) waging war against heresies like Open Theism and the New Perspective on Paul? Did you know that he has composed a whole series of sermons on the great heresy-hunters of Church history (Athanasius, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, etc.)?
I will not (unlike you) presume to know what John Piper would think of this site. It is apparent, however, that he is not afraid to confront error.
God Speed
I think we pretty exhausted the fact a couple of days ago about judging prophecy against scripture and that most of us agree that it must indeed line up with scripture.
I have no beef with that.
There have been a few suggestions however that if these prophecies haven’t came true yet, then they must be false.
That is a very broad statement!!
Are we talking about specific prophecies given with specific dates and times, or are we talking about some in general prophecy that hasn’t come to be.
I really believe some should be more specific in their remarks when critcizing prophecy.
Need I remind you that there are still some prophecies left to be fullfilled in scripture , such as the second coming of Jesus, and the end time events prophesyed of in scripture.
No one is calling those prophets false!!
Love in Christ
Jake
Jake,
I can’t speak for the others but I am speaking about specific prophecies with specific dates or about words that are obviously unbiblical in their nature when I criticize the modern prophets. For instance, when Kim Clement prophesied that Osama Ben Laden would be uncovered within 35 days in 2004, that was a false prophecy. When Bill Yount prophesied that God would begin to bring salvation through candy bars over the Christmas season in 2005 that was a false prophecy.
-k
Keith,
I agree @ kim, but I wonder, can you know for certain that nowhere in 2005 Christmas season that someone didn’t come to know Jesus because of a candy bar that someone offered in love. It’s a big world!!
In Christ
Jake
Jake,
You wrote:
but I wonder, can you know for certain that nowhere in 2005 Christmas season that someone didn’t come to know Jesus because of a candy bar that someone offered in love. It’s a big world!!
That isn’t what the prophecy said. You can read it on Elijah list. Yount prophesied that there would be new candy bars introduced over Christmas that would have a prophetic anointing on their names. The mere name of the candy bar would call forth life and salvation. People would eat these new candy bars and taste and see that the Lord is good.
Jake, the means of bringing salvation is the preaching of the gospel not prophetic candy. This message is unbiblical in its orientation and failed to come to pass.
-k
Keith
OK,
See I didn’t know the text of the word that had been given.
wow! I think I would even have a problem with that one, and I am pretty forgiving !
BTW , I know the means of salvation is the gospel, i have been preaching it for a few years myself. I didn’t mean to insinuate otherwise
Love in Christ
Jake
Jake,
here’s another one for you- this one false not because of specific dates but false because it espouses reincarnation. I suppose the reference toi “marys of this hour” implies that they will be impregnated by the holy ghost as well. Wow.
I will cause the blood of the aborted children to be quieted, because I am now resurrecting them in the wombs of the Marys of this hour. You thought you took them out, Satan, but I am bringing them back through the wombs of the women that are giving birth in the next 15 years and shall bring forth those that were stolen from the wombs of those through legalized abortions.
Bill,
Who spoke this prophecy? I need this one for my records.
-k
Take a wild guess.
http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word/3406
Jim Goll relates a dream he had several years ago about the president and gives an exhortation as follows. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In 1993, I was given several dreams concerning President Clinton, one of which I saw a national television broadcast on which he openly confessed adultery, asked forgiveness of his wife and family and his political party and the nation and there was great contrition.
http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word/614
At the time of the first election Bob [Jones] was given a vision illustrating the years of Bill Clinton term. He was shown three flags for this illustration… one blue, one red and another pale white. The blue represented many revelations that would be surfacing during the early stages of his presidency. The red represented the continual conflicts that would exist during his term. The pale flag represented the last portion of his term in office and symbolized that it would be “hell on earth”. However, the very end of this flag was a pure white denoting a release of God’s glory during the final days of his term of office
http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word/566
Just my two cents,
When I think about and cry out for more Lord, I believe it is for God to judge the intent of what it is the person is crying out for.
For me it is me crying out for more of HIM and I can tell anyone this with no reservation, that if a man stops hungering after God then he has already stopped living. I can’t answer for others, but I will always be hungry for Him.
Now if there are those crying out for more Lord and are only looking for a spiritual buzz, then that is all they will ever get.
Fix your eyes on Him, for He alone is worthy!!
Love in Christ
Jake
BUT Jake,
When one cries out to God they must honor Him for who He correctly revealed himself to be. I may be out of order, but anyone who prophesies (sp? wish this had spell check) that candy has an anointing on it- makes me wonder whether they ever understood the Gospel at all. How can you be that far off base? Well I guess I dont have much room to talk but atleast I’m not posting a prophesy for all the world to read
and trying to make a living off my warped view of God.
Mary
I didn’t post that prophecy nor give it!
just responding to it, like you did.
in Christ
Jake
That’s good to know, your not a flake. Right?
Depends on who you ask, LOL
Before you go making blanket accusations about pride and self-righteousness on our part, take a look at this post:
Drew…I did read your post and frankly it added more fuel to the fire. You claim to be helping others…but the post you directed me to is all about you and what you want…which seems clearly to be the true motvie behind your entire website. Not that you are not among the rest of us that want to do what we want…for example…let me tell you what I want…I would rather hear you say that you are out to repay evil for evil to those who you feel have abused you in your experience. Helping people seems to be what you use as a justification for your eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth mentality…or heresy hunting as some might call it…but it is so clear by your own confession that you are really out to expose “these people” because they messed with you. I am not saying you don’t want to help others in some misguided way…but let’s cut to the chase…you are out for revenge!
Also, Jesus’ accusation against the Pharisees is that they sought a sign from heaven to prove he was God.
No….actually Jesus made no accusation of the Pharisees in this case….and no again… they were asking for a sign to prove Jesus had no authority to do what he did, not to prove whether or not he was God (this is not heresy on your part, just a misinterpretation of scripture). They clearly did not believe he was God, or at least their god….and actually they we’re just taking a faulty stance against Jesus…much like you do against those you oppose on this website. Actually I would say that you have more in common contextually with those asking for the miraculous sign than you do with the reply of Jesus. If your website was in the true spirit of the “sign of Jonah” statement made by Jesus you would not be so fiercely opposing those who have wronged you, but instead trying to reconcile them (your enemies) to God even unto your own death. This is love. The sign of Jonah is what reconciles men to God…not alienates them as you try to do to those you oppose. Even in his statement regarding the Sign of Jonah, Jesus was giving those who asked him for a sign grace to be reconciled to God and respond as those in Nineveh did. I would encourage you to not receive the same grace in vain and become a reconciler rather than an alienator.
If you want to talk about taking things out of context, why don’t you look at some of the teachings we’ve examined?
I have.
Oh, and have you taken the plank out of your eye yet? Otherwise by your own faulty logic, you shouldn’t be saying anything to us.
My logic is not faulty, and I have taken the plank out of my eye simply by my post …if you can follow that logic.
You cannot be completely unconscious of the cognitive dissonance here, can you? Whilst damning Drew for judging, you are… judging him, no?
I am not in any way daming Drew. There is no “cognitive dissonance”. The fact that you think there is displays that it is you that needs to “grow up” and mature in your understanding of cognitive dissonances.
And yes, Jim B. I do presume to know what John Piper would think of this site. As you mature you might also be able to make similar presumptions.
Rob, your post is simply not worth responding to. I hope you can read my previous posts and change your attitude. If not or if so, bless you.
Plankeye,
Have a great weekend.
-r
Plankeye,
I count myself as one who has been helped by this blog. There are many others who have expressed gratitude in the comments sections of various posts. When I began researching info on IHOP/Mike Bickle after a “friend” had begun exposing me to this, I found this site and began reading the blogs and their associated comments and links. This was HUGE in helping me to understand the underlying theology and preventing me from going down this road. I thank God for giving me discernment in this area. This doesn’t mean that I agree with all the comments and posts on here; but, I can say that about just about anything.
When my “friend” found out I was questioning this stuff, she promptly ceased all communication with me emphatically insisting I not communicate with her either. I was not rude at all in my attempts to show her the error of these teachings; but, nonetheless she did not want to hear any of what I had to say. This apparently is VERY typical of people caught up in and/or teachers of this movement.
So, how do you know that Drew did not make an attempt to reconcile his “enemies to God?” Perhaps he received the same response I did.
False teaching which is given publicly needs to be addressed publicly. This way it can be exposed to the largest segment of people possible. Souls are at stake here. This isn’t the only website to do this. If you feel the approach here is wrong then perhaps a “truth in love” would be a better way to expose your viewpoint.
Plankeye,
“I would rather hear you say that you are out to repay evil for evil… you are out for revenge!” “Actually I would say that you have more in common contextually with those asking for the miraculous sign [Pharisees]…” (Not judgmental?)
“My logic is not faulty, and I have taken the plank out of my eye simply by my post …if you can follow that logic.” (No, I can’t… but who could?)
“And yes, Jim B. I do presume to know what John Piper would think…” (Prophetic = Psychic?)
Oh that you would keep silent,
and it would be your wisdom!
Job 13:5
Plankeye,
Who are the “we” and “us” that you have mentioned in your statements? A whole group of you are reading these posts together and looking into these posts? Are you a believer in the lLatter Rain theology, are you a “Manifested Son of God” theologically, a “Dominionist” theologically? Are you a pentecost or charismatic or a Third wave”er”? Do you know John Piper? Are you a IHOP staffer? Are you a pastor?
Are you part of the original music group, “PLANKEYE”!
Jusr who are you that you can so pridefully tell us that the plank is out of your eye?
My son and his wife have been ON STAFF at IHOP for 2 years. My husband recently dug in to what Mike Bickle teaches, his ties to Paul Cain etc. He spoke with my son telling him he thought IHOP may be a cult.
My son and his wife have cut off 100% of communication with us. 100%
Does anyone know if the “students and/or STAFF” are taught to completely cut off contact with family/friends who disagree with IHOP?
I know my son loves the Lord, but I feel like he’s in so deep, it’s almost - or rather, it seems it has brainwashed him.
HELP.
SadParent
Many years ago I was in a cultish church ( not ihop) that restricted all contact with family. For obvious reasons my mother was really worried about me. She prayed for me and after several years I saw the light and left the church. Those that were not part of the church were thought of as the enemy and perceived as decieved.
My husband and I were on staff at IHOP for several years. After seeing and awakening to the Truth we left. We were never told to severe relationship with family nor with others that did not agree with IHOP. There is a passionate belief however that the mission and vision of IHOP is of God and that we are the ones that have fallen away and are deceived. When we have brought the Truth to friends that are involved , they have severed relationship with us ,as if we are the enemy. Prayer is more powerful than the cultish system of beliefs that have grabbed ahold of them. So keep on praying that they will have eyes to see. It is so easy to get caught up in the ferver of being apart of “something bigger than themselves” and the “end-time army” that is going to do “great feats for the Lord”.
My heart goes out to you. My mom died while I was still at the cult church I was involved in years ago. We never reconciled. You and your son and wife will be in my prayers.
SadParent,
Praying now.
-r
R - I thank you for your prayers. I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me.. I will get through this - I only hope that my son and his wife will one day find it in their hearts to allow me to see my grandchild.
I drove up to see them unexpectedly this last weekend - 3 hour drive - they allowed me in their home, but then my son started yelling at me, saying “I didn’t know!!!” and then they told me to leave after being in their home only 15 min. — a 3 hour drive for 15 min. — THAT is when I really started worrying about IHOP and what it was doing to my son and his wife.
GOD CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH PRAYER. I am clinging to that.
Thank you for your responce.
Does anyone know if the “students and/or STAFF” are taught to completely cut off contact with family/friends who disagree with IHOP?
Others who have experience with family members will post on this I’m sure. In the meantime, I’ll just say that I had a “friend” who tried to convince me of some of these teachings and as I listened to her initially she kept fellowship with me heartily encouraging me. As I began to doubt the teachings, then reject some and point out some of the error, she broke off fellowship with me. I believe it was her spiritual “mentor” who suggested it; but, I can’t be sure.
So, yes, I do believe that those caught up in this “movement” are told to cut all ties with “unbelievers.” It’s much like Jehovah’s Witnesses or any other cult. They are so sincere in their deception that they really wholeheartedly believe they are right and everyone else is wrong; and, if it’s a “Christian” (like myself) who doesn’t “get it” then I believe they think we’re “of the devil.” (Perhaps “wolves in sheeps clothing?”
They cut ties for their own “protection” from “negative influence.” Quite sad. 
The best we can do is pray. I’ll pray for you son and daughter-in-law.
Lee,
I thank you also for your prayers. There is NOTHING impossible for God. My son’s name is Mike. Please, prayer partners, please lift Mike up in prayer and pray that God will truly open his and his wife’s eyes.
I truly do covet your prayers! Thank you and God bless you so richly.
SadParent
Sad parent:
I agree with In Recovery . Myself and my children were a part of IHOP for about 2 years while my husband continued to work at his job. He was very quick to see what was going on but I chose not too look too hard at what he was seeing. It was hard to explain to him why even though I seriously disagreed with several of IHOP’s teachings (latter rain in particular) I still stayed. I think at lot of it is the feeling of belonging. It is so much like a big family there–it is VERY hard to break away even if you see things that are wrong. You know if you leave, there is little chance you would find another church/group to be a part of like IHOP. (which is actually a GOOD thing when I look back on the situation) I do agree with Lee-like the Jehovah’s witnesses.
I was never told to cut off my family and friends and neither were my children. They discouraged outside involvement by keeping us so busy you could not get away to do anything else so I pretty much only knew IHOP members.
Now that I and my children have left, our “friends” there have broken off fellowship with us. They told my son that he had nothing in common with them any longer so he could not fellowship with them unless he came back to IHOP. It has probably hurt my son the most but none of us have returned. I don’t think it is actually anyone is TOLD to cut off relationships, it is just that the people at IHOP feel so superior because of what they are doing that when you become an outsider, you are beneath them and they do not want to have any fellowship with you.
I, too, will be praying for your family and that the Lord will send someone to them that will be able to minister to them in a way that they will see the deception.
Just curious, are they treating your daughter-in-law’s parents the same way?
Beth,
In answer to your question: are they treating your daughter-in-law’s parents the same way? The answer is no. The reason, however, is the mother, ( there is no father) is in agreement with IHOP.
My son told me that SHE also has a VERY negative opinion of me. That was right before he told me to leave his home.
I covet your prayers. Like I said before, I know my son loves the Lord, he’s just so deep into this movement - I really feel he’s been brainwashed.
Again, I do so appreciate your prayers.
p.s. My roots as a Believer began in a charismatic church - but that was back in ‘80 and we didn’t do any of the vibrating, animal noises or any of that. So I’m not against charismatic per se, I am against doctrine that goes against scripture. Show me where it’s in the Bible and I’ll give my vote - but otherwise…
SadParent,
Your request has tugged so huge on my heart. Michael is a beautiful name. “Who is like God?”
No one. And I will pray that the God that none of His Creation is like, will loose the scales on the eyes of your son and daughter in law.
When I was involved in a church that eventually became an IHOP, I was arrogant about people not being as enlightened as I was. My dad and my husband were concerned. (They both saw right thru it) But I was smarter and more spiritual than them and therefore brushed them off.
The good news is– I came around– and I know it was because they prayed and others did too.
A lot of us have come around– its not an impossible thing.
It was hard. I lost a lot of friends almost overnight. Even when I figured out that this was not all it was cracked up to be, it was still a hard decision to fully walk away from. In fact when my dad would refute me, Id get upset with him and then my brain would again say “you know more than him because you have had all these esoteric and mystical experiences” and it was like some sort of breaker that was tripped and then I reset and pushed out all the stuff that told me I was wrong. For me to have my crisis of faith, I had to find it out on my own– it was on accident, but I am so thankful it happened. It was a very hard decision to make, but absolutely the right one.
Im sorry that your visit was so short and upsetting. It breaks my heart.
I am praying hard your son and daughter in law come full circle
Blessings,
Amanda
SadParent,
First, I’m very sorry to hear about your son and daughter-in-law. I am praying for Mike and for your family.
There is no official policy at IHOP about cutting off ties with parents who disagree. However, you are certainly not the first parent that has experienced this. I have personally dealt with others. The fact that there is no official policy does not mean that someone in the organization (not necessarily a leader) still didn’t suggest it to them. Or they could have misinterpreted a passage in scripture and determined this was the course of action to take.
Have you appealed directly to any senior leadership at IHOP? If not, I would suggest attempting to contact Allen Hood. He may be able to at least arrange a phone contact (although he may also tell you that he can’t force your son to see you). The senior leadership at IHOP is sensitive about this kind of charge and so may help in order to avoid the bad PR that these kinds of stories bring.
Please email me privately at kgrev15@msn.com. I would like to try and help you with this. I have some suggestions.
In Christ,
-k
SadParent,
I have responded to your email. I know you asked me to write my responses here but I’m not comfortable with that. We need to discuss some personal matters.
-k
K, I responded to your web address.. TO EVERYONE ELSE.. Please know that your many messages you’ve posted here have basically helped me keep from feeling like I was drowning.
I have never experienced such sadness - anger - frustration - hurt -etc.
So please keep the prayers coming, for my son, Mike and his wife. That their eyes be opened!
And for me and my husband.
Only God can fix this - Lord, please fix this. Please bring my family back to where YOU want them.
In Christ, SadParent
Sad Parent,
I think a great many of us of here can certainly relate to feeling helpless at these times in our children’s lives. Our experiences may all be different, but we share the common bond of parenthood, so we shall uphold you and your family in prayer. Please do stay in touch and keep us updated.
SadParent,
I am praying right now that God in his great mercy will open you son’s eyes to the truth and will blind his eyes to deception.
Rob
Rob, what a perfect way to pray! Not only open his eyes to the truth, but blind them to the deception! ( I think the reason I didn’t think of that myself was due to this being my son and not someone in church.) But boy oh boy, did that ever make a lightbulb go on in my spirit!
Rob, that was the Lord.
MBaker, I thank you for continuing to pray for my family. I keep reminding myself that ..God causes ALL things to work together for good… and my son does love the Lord and is called according to His purpose.. And yes, I will keep this site in touch with this unfolding story.
To God Be the Glory.
Bereanonthewall,
You said: For me to have my crisis of faith, I had to find it out on my own– it was on accident, but I am so thankful it happened. It was a very hard decision to make, but absolutely the right one.
Mind if I ask ‘what accident’?
SadParent
Sad Parent,
Your son is so fortunate, even if he does not know it yet, to have parents that are willing to pray for him and stand for truth even in spite of his rejection. I will be praying for you and your husband as well as your son and daughter-in-law. You need strength and wisdom from the Lord because this is a very difficult test! I will be praying that in the end, your son will see the truth and rise up and call you blessed for your steadfast stand even in the face of adversity.
Even though my own son saw the deception, he was very hurt over several different situations at IHOP and he has become closed up spiritually. He still loves the Lord and is trying to find a church where he lives but the trust issue has been so violated for him by so many people that it is very difficult for him.
WHEN your son comes out of this movement, he will need your prayer and support more than ever because it will shake his very foundations.
May the Lord be your strong and mighty tower!
b-
Beth,
Your kind words - what they meant to me.. I whole heartedly thank you for your prayers re: strength and wisdom from the Lord.. we know that when we ask for wisdom, that God gives it liberally! His strength I long for as well.
I keep asking the Lord, “Lord, I trained him up in the way he should go…” Part of me wants to say, “Well?!??” But the other part of me says, “he’s not done growing up yet…i.e. God isn’t done with him so don’t get discouraged.” I know in my heart he will eventuallly yeild… Beth, again, I do thank you for your kind words. God is so good!
You have helped to be a life raft to me this evening.
It is late. Tomorrow is another day. Lord, I’m patiently waiting - on You!
MONDAY: To all who have been and are praying, please continue.
My son has asked me not to communicate with him or his family any further as he believes I am “ungodly” because I have had the audacity to question the teachings of IHOP.
I feel God’s protection over my heart, as this should normally cause me to hurt, but it doesn’t.
It stings a little, but I am looking toward the future and seeing him again loving his parents..
I’m so thankful for this particular protection..
SadParent,
My heart aches for you. As a parent Ican relate to thefeelings this is causing. My prayers shall go before the Lord for you.
I am quite disappointed that this is being allowed by the IHOP leaders. I can’t believe that someone hasn’t read this considering the amount of IHOP people that read this site.
What ever happened to the scripture, Honor thy father and mother. and what is the other part of that? “…so it will go well with you…(children)
As I say, I will be praying…
God bless you and give you peace through this trial.
SadParent,
I grieve with you. You son is wrong and it makes me angry…not at him, but at the deception of it all.
I’m praying right now.
-r
IWantthetruth: You said, “What ever happened to the scripture, Honor thy father and mother. and what is the other part of that? “…so it will go well with you…(children)”
His e-mail to me only stated that he was no longer a child, but the man of his household and therefore, I had no right to be part of thier lives any further.
Thank you for your prayers. I appreciate them so much.
sad parent,
My husband says when it does not make sense in the natural, it must be spiritual. Continuing to pray for his eyes to see the truth and continued strength for you and your husband.
b-
Beth,
I keep reminding myself that God causes all things to work together for those who love the Lord…
Your husband is quite right, this IS spiritual ~
At this time I’ve been called deceitful, that contacting his school about his not communicating with me at all was delving into gossip/slander, was due to manipulation and impure motives, that I have “religiosity”, that I’ve been manipulative..deceptive, and as I said, to stay away from their home as I am not welcome.
I’m not a superhero in the spiritual world. I haven’t written books or preached sermons. I’m a believing mother. One thing I do know is that even though I’m no superhero, I’m a born again believer who is watching something that is unfathomable ~ so yes, it must be spiritual as there is no other explanation.
I only ask that all who read this might be in agreement with me IN PRAYER that God will (eventually, I’m sure) open their eyes to the error they’re being taught. Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God - not by ‘feeling’.
If I’m missing it, someone please let me know. But no matter how spiritual a person thinks they are, they’re still nothing without Jesus. The holy laughter, the shaking and shimmering to prove that it’s truly a worship experience, the part about ‘prophecies that aren’t 100% are OK”, the generational curses being handed down even if you’re a believer and LOVE the Lord??? These teachings just DO NOT add up. The worst part: the people (including my son and his wife) who are caught up in this, shunning their family who disagree with these teachings - it just leaves my mind boggled.
Wasn’t there something in scripture about the end times and people being taken in by teachings that really tickled their ears, or something like that???
2 Timothy 4:3-4, “3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
Yes, sorry to say…
how unbelievable. How can anyone look at this situation and not believe there are very very serious problems that should be addressed immediatly at IHOP
b-
Sadparent,
Believing mothers, i think, are truly a gift from God. I found my way out of IHOP a few months, largely, I believe, due to the quiet prayers of my mom who was very concerned about me.
Sara,
Please tell me, you were there. Iis there any one thing I could say that would possibly make my son THINK?
Beth has a very REAL comment: these problems should indeed be addressed at IHOP, and I’ve read here where IHOPpers get on this site frequently.
All the ones checking out this site, isn’t anyone SEEING something WRONG?
Sadly, I’m afraid, in reading my son’s hateful letter to me, that he has virtually SHUT OUT anything that does not 100% agree with IHOP. That in itself should throw up red flags but because he’s “staff” and “so much like Mr. H… when he preaches” that he IS REALLY SOMETHING. ..and I’m just wrong- that and all the other things he said as noted earlier..
I still ask that all who read these entries will please pray that God will open their eyes to the truth - but now, a new twist, that He would also OPEN THEIR EYES to the deception.
God can do anything!
SadParent,
“That in itself should throw up red flags but because he’s “staff” and “so much like Mr. H… when he preaches” that he IS REALLY SOMETHING. ..and I’m just wrong- that and all the other things he said as noted earlier..
A bit of PRIDE on his part? You know what scripture says about that. Maybe this is what will bring him to a point of repentence and recocilliation between you and them and he and the Lord!
I will continue to pray in both ways for your family.
I really hope that there are IHOP people who come to this site and hopefully, learn.
God is capable of bringing anyone to a place where their eyes are opened.
I pray it happens to my son ..
Thank you for your prayers, truth.
Thanks for everyone’s continued prayers for my son, Mike and his wife.
No results yet but I’m really leaning on God’s word - especially the part about His answers being ‘yes’ and ‘amen’.
My son, as I noted earlier, as determined that because I disagree with IHOP that I am “ungodly”.. even though I was the one who raised him in church, had nightly prayers with him at bedtime, read the Bible with him etc. etc. But God hasn’t changed. (Aren’t you glad to be reminded about that?) He is still the same - yesterday, today and forever. So even though it seems like forever in “our time”, it’s just a second with the Lord. So friends, please keep this in prayer… and thank you in advance. In Christ - SP
p.s. We ARE in the final moments before His return. With all the middle east happenings, the earthquakes everywhere, people running to listen to whatever makes them feel good, 666 being introduced via UPC then right on down to microchip implants - we are virtually in the last seconds before Jesus returns..
The neatest thing though, the people you work with? Your neighbors? They’re all really willing to listen to the message of the Cross.. I’m finding myself sharing the Lord with people I never thought would care about it at all. Even unbelievers are seeing “something” wrong with the world - and they’re scared..
Sad,
We are glad for the opportunity to help. We will keep your son in prayer, that the Holy Spirit will guide him back to the truth. Keep your chin up and your faith strong in the meantime. We do serve a prayer answering God, thankfully.
Blessings, and may you receive all the comfort of the Lord as you walk through this valley.
Sad Parent;
I just read the entire thread from when you came on and my heart breaks for you, as I know that you are shaken to the core of your being–your own faith is being tested at this hour. I know what you are talking about and I will explain a little farther down.
You said:
“My son, as I noted earlier, as determined that because I disagree with IHOP that I am “ungodly”.. even though I was the one who raised him in church, had nightly prayers with him at bedtime, read the Bible with him etc. etc. But God hasn’t changed. (Aren’t you glad to be reminded about that?) He is still the same - yesterday, today and forever. So even though it seems like forever in “our time”, it’s just a second with the Lord. So friends, please keep this in prayer… and thank you in advance. In Christ - SP”
The Bible says: “Train up a child in the way he should go and he will not depart from it when he is older.” I was saved at 17 years old in a solid Bible teaching Baptist church. I loved the Lord so much and continue to do so. After I was married and in my early child-bearing years I got messed up in Vineyard and TACF and swallowed false teaching because everyone else was doing it. The Holy Spirit began to press me from the inside out. The questions kept being spoken inside of me “Where do you find that in the Bible?” “Where is that experience in the Bible.” “Your on this spiritual ladder to no where.” Completely independently of anyone else speaking to me–the Holy Spirit got through to me. I found this blog and it was the beginning of my recovery. I just made a long story short.
I also want to share something else with you. I know it’s different, but I too was a “Sad Parent” for the last two years of my life, my husband and other three children included. My dear daughter who loved the lord, obeyed her parents and evangelized her friends, was an hours student turned COOL. She drank, did drugs, slept around, flunked out of school, moved around the corner to her boyfriends house while the mother continued to pour whiskey shots to a girl who had already was an alcoholic. I was shaken to the core of my being. I prayed with friends, my church prayed, my husband and I prayed and wept and fasted regularly. I spent a lot of the last two years of my life on the floor of my family room weeping before God and pouring out my heart. I couldn’t see how He could help any of us, but I knew I had HOPE and my HOPE was in Christ. You will always have HOPE! I would weep and then get up and by the end of the day be making a wonderful dinner for my family and laughing and trusting in God and the Hope the I will always have in Christ.
Guess what happened. Last year before Christmas she came home. She was so sorry for what she had done. Before she came home she called us to pick her up for church. She stayed with the boyfriend a few months longer, but we waited, prayed and watched and eventually she broke up with him. She would sit and weep as she listened to the sermons. We assured her of our love and God’s love all the time. she repented and went on a mission to a Native REserve for the entire summer where alcoholism was so in her face all of the time and the effects of it. She went into NUrsing at University this fall and we are very proud of her and even more proud of the God we love and serve. He did the impossible, and while we know she is a broken girl with an alcohol problem we have encouraged her to be upfront with that and to know that if she ever falls of the wagon we will pick her back up again and God will be there for her.
Sorry to be so long but I hope this testimony helps you. I am no longer sad and one of my friends said something to me on Monday while we were having coffee. She heard a sermon the day before about how we need to be heavenly minded. She told me that I immediately came to her mind as she watched me go through the last two years. She said you are the only person I know that I have seen be heavenly minded when going through a trial. I give the praise to God–He stripped me of everything, even the desire to live and replaced in with eternal HOPE!
I pray the same for you my friend,
God bless
SadParent:
You are still on my prayer list along with Iwant’s son and Rob’s son. I have no children of my own; but, I used to have step-children who I haven’t seen in 5 years; so, I know what it’s like to be estranged.
Hang in there! He is faithful!
And, thanks for the reminder about being Heavenly minded. I need to be more diligent in this regard. Eternity is a l-o-n-g time!
Free indeed,
I was very encouraged to read about your daughter’s turn around. I am asking God for that very thing for my son and his wife.
Your daughter had made a wonderful vocational decision, nursing. I speak from experience on this one =)
I’ll be keeping her in prayer that the old monsters of drugs & OH stay away from her as she travels into her new profession. For someone who’s wrestled with those demons in the past, she’s chosen a really tough profession.. I speak from experience on this as well..
God’s blessings and thank you for your lovely words of encouragement.
SP
Wow, I go away for a day, return and what I read are really interesting.
Hey all keep up the prayers along with me. Some things are happening in my son that may make a difference about what he is believing and such. I will share more later.
Thanks for the prayers and I am still praying for SadParent
..and SadParent thanks you and the rest here for your prayers.. can’t wait to hear the news about your son.. if it’s possible for one, it’s possible for many…
Sadparent,
It sounds (this is purely my assessment, not necessarily truth) like you are more frustrated at Mike’s shutting you out of his life rather than a specific theology flaw at IHOP. This is evident when you said:
“We ARE in the final moments before His return. With all the middle east happenings, the earthquakes everywhere, people running to listen to whatever makes them feel good, 666 being introduced via UPC then right on down to microchip implants - we are virtually in the last seconds before Jesus returns..”
(Notice how no one commented on this statement directly. They did not comment because most people here associate that line of thinking with ‘charismania’
So, I feel that maybe you have blamed IHOP for your son’s OWN actions. This could be because (understandably) you feel that you raised him better than he is acting at the moment, and so it must be some outside influence that is causing him to do so. This however is probably not the case. Your son’s shutting you out of his life is his own choice and not the result of brainwashing.
I do not know the specifics of why this would happen. However, I would imagine it is for the same reason that most rejections arise. People do not want to put forth the effort to reconcile differences and therefore avoid the situation by staying away from each other (which is one of the many reasons God is so AWESOME, He came low to us to reconcile us)
I will pray for Mike and you to increase in love for one another.
LovetheWord,
Your comments left me with the impression that you yourself are connected with IHOP – sounds as though you may even be in a leadership role..
Theology flaws at IHOP are very simple: I’ll name an easy one: prophecy doesn’t have to be 100% accurate. Mike Bickle attested to that. Where is that written in scripture?
The reason I still believe IHOP and its teachings have caused a negative change in my son is very simple. Prior to my telling my son that I had serious reservations about IHOP, he used to freely communicate with my husband and I. Phone calls, e-mails, snail mail and personal visits to my home 3 hours away..
HOWEVER, once I finally did express my feelings about IHOP – as it possibly being a cult, he cut off communication completely. COMPLETELY.
So I’m sure you’re right, that this is a case of “his own choice”(of him shutting me out of his life), but I’m VERY certain, since he referred to me as “ungodly”, that his choice has been due to his deep involvement with IHOP.
(If you read the messages above, you will find that this same ‘cut-off ties with negative influences’ has happened to other parents as well. You will also see where ex-IHOPpers have noted that they too have gone through what I’ve described in my son.)
Charismania? No. Scripture – yes.
First, I am definitely not in leadership at IHOP. I am however an Armenian who likes to read other opinions (thus why I am here). I am sorry if I came off a bit clinical, after reading my post one last time I could see how that could be perceived.
I really did not mean to cause an argument. I did however want to point out the obvious, it takes two to create an argument (something my mother said to me often). And how you and he now have the fantastic opportunity to show humility to one another.
I realize that I am far removed from the situation and therefore do not have full insight. But, conflicts arise often when both parties are indignant. Therefore, I want to encourage you to show humility.
You may not fully agree with your son, but I am sure that when you look back on the whole situation there were times that you could have taken the low road (maybe I am wrong, and you showed humility the whole time). But, if you are anything like myself then there are areas where you can apologize. And maybe by apologizing (although you may not feel you did anything wrong) you can reconcile your hearts.
Theology on the other hand may take longer
LovetheWord,
You said “Your son’s shutting you out of his life is his own choice and not the result of brainwashing.”
You may be right. I don’t know. But it is true that IHOP does employ certain practices that are consistent with what has traditionally been called brain washing. The extent to which these practices have affected SadParent’s son,we don’t know.
You also referenced a quote by SadParent that many of us COULD have commented on. I for one chose not to comment, because I appreciate the deep hurt that she is dealing with and at the moment that seems more important to me that some differences in eschatological interpretations of present-day technologies.
I am praying for SadParent and her son. I think your advice regarding humility is always appropriate. Thank you.
-r
LovetheWord:
Just reading your comments briefly, I wonder if you have grown children of your own and can actually relate to the pain the “Sadparent” is in, before you even comment.
I still find your above comments somewhat clinical and diagnostic. I bet “Sadparent” has taken the low road a “gazillion” times before. Please do not judge her, just support her and trust the maturity that she has gained because of her years.
As I said to my prayer group yesterday, 24/7 worship of IHOP, diminishes God’s sovereinty and raises the sovereinty of man. Let’s boost God up, because He is powerless without our praise and worship.
God bless you
In regard to your prophecy statment.
“But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die. 21 And if you say in your heart, How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or