What’s Cookin’ in IHOP’s Kitchen?
By Keith
“Do you have any information on IHOP? What’s your impression of what’s going on there? My child just got involved in IHOP, should I be concerned?” The questions come in a number of forms but are basically seeking the same information. I receive multiple inquiries at ARC weekly concerning the International House of Prayer. We have documented a large number of concerns throughout this blog. I think several of these articles are very important and should be read by those seeking detailed information. However, for those who are needing something handy and for those who are simply unwilling to read back through the posts on the blog, I have decided to lay out my major concerns in this post. This post will contain the basic answer that I give to those seeking information on our apologetics site or when the subject comes up at conferences. I want to state that these are only the major concerns and do not constitute a full list. Space constraints will demand that the post be brief and somewhat generalized. I should also state that the issues with IHOP specifically are in many respects the same issues that are rampant within the apostolic/prophetic movement generally.
These issues have to do with the doctrines and practices of the movement. Here’s the obligatory disclaimer. I am not saying these people are not Christians. I am not saying they are not nice and sincere. I’m not saying that they are not passionate. In fact passion is one of the things that I respect in the ministry. I am not saying that they are wrong on all counts. I will even concede that most of them are better looking than I am. So if you’re going to discuss personalities don’t bother commenting. This is about issues.
One word concerning the acronym. I did not develop this to try to be cute, clever, trite or malicious but simply because I’m getting older and I needed something that helped me state the significant concerns in a concise manner and in a way that will hopefully be memorable to the inquirer.
So without further adieu, here are the key issues as I see them.
Faulty hermeneutic: As we have documented in numerous blog entries on this site, the general approach to the Bible by many of the teachers at IHOP is very sloppy. Context, history and word meanings are all irrelevant. The Bible means whatever we want it to mean today. So Mike Bickle can redefine the words of Jude 3 to state that we are to “press into God for the experience of apostolic power granted to the first century church”. He can find somewhere in Revelation 10 a word that God is going to raise up “10,000 apostolic evangelists” in the last days who will participate in the judgments of heaven and whose words will have power to cause change in both the natural and the supernatural. Bickle and Jill Austin can read Micah 2:12-13 and find justification for a teaching on a “breaker anointing” which is a “catalytic deposit of the Holy Spirit that allows heaven to invade earth for the purpose of God to go forward in new dimensions.” Kirk Bennett (who recently left IHOP to join Rick Joyner and ZHOP) can read Matt. 8:20 where Jesus states to an individual desiring to follow Him, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head” and determine that Jesus is speaking about the church because the Holy Spirit had not yet been poured out and Jesus did not have a people to indwell. Bennett and Jones can read Hebrews 7 and discover that individual believers are the Melchizedek priesthood. We dedicated more than one blog posting to discussing Allen Hood’s treatment of the lovesick Jesus in Galatians 4:4. We can add to that his teachings on praying for an open heaven where angels descend to earth to enforce a heavenly decree which he bases loosely (extremely loosely) on John 1:51. I could go on and on. This issue is so pervasive and so systemic within the movement that it occurs in nearly every sermon and every book produced by an IHOP teacher.
Add to that, the implication from all the new revelations that the Bible is neither complete nor sufficient and this is an extremely serious issue.
The Bible simply deserves better. I will state again that if it is wrong to mishandle, misquote and take the words of men out of context, it is far more serious to do so with the word of God. If we can’t keep our own people to a proper handling of the Word, what are we to say when the Jehovah’s Witness knocks on our door? How will those influenced by IHOP’s method recognize even worse teaching when they encounter it later in life?
This is issue number one and, in many ways, it is foundational to the other issues.
Aberrant teachings and practices: The faulty handling of scripture leads to erroneous conclusions which opens the door to false teachings and practices. Once again, we have discussed at length on this blog IHOP teachings such as Contemplative Prayer (beholding the glory of God within you which Mike Bickle states is the key to fulfilling Eph. 3:18-19), Fellowshipping with the Holy Spirit, the elected seed, the Bridal Paradigm and many of the dominionist teachings at IHOP. Add to this doctrines and practices such as spiritual mapping, prophetic art, the Jezebel spirit, the Anna anointing, the uniqueness of the end-time generation, restoration of the tabernacle of David, end-time cities of refuge, the Eli spirit, the harp and bowl model, third heaven visitations as a normative experience, books on dream interpretation, spiritual portals etc., etc. The list seems endless and this is nowhere near exhaustive.
The fact is that doctrines and practices completely unknown for the 2,000 year history of the church are commonplace in the teaching ministry at IHOP. These teachings have little or no basis within the pages of scripture.
We could add to this the general disdain for doctrine that is displayed at IHOP. Doctrine is repeatedly downplayed. In his book, “Growing in the Prophetic”, Bickle implies that even the doctrine of the Trinity is a secondary issue in the way he glosses over it in his race to commend William Branham.
Lack of balance: This issue involves a number of things. First, the major teachers at IHOP give very little time within the normal teaching ministry of the organization (I’m not talking about the school at this point) to the essential doctrines of the faith. One will search in vain for an in-depth discussion by an IHOP leader on the fall of man, the sovereignty of God, the Trinity, the virgin birth, the resurrection, final judgment, sin, grace or nearly any other foundational issue of the Christian faith. There are no sermon series (or individual sermons that I could find) on Christian morality and ethics or character development. I’m not saying these terms are never mentioned. I am saying that they are not expounded upon. Allen Hood’s series on the Cross and the Excellencies of Christ are notable exceptions to the overall lack of foundational teaching but the exception only serves to illustrate the rule. This is true even in the book selections available at the store. Certainly there is Grudem’s Systematic Theology and a book or two by John Piper and John Stott. But there is nearly an entire wall of Roman Catholic mystics. There is a huge section of modern prophecies, books on dream interpretation and spiritual warfare teachings like spiritual mapping. The main things are not the main things in the teaching ministry at the International House of Prayer. Even a former staff member acknowledged to me personally, “IHOP probably does need a more full-orbed approach to the Christian faith.”
Another aspect of this lack of balance is the lack of teaching from the New Testament. There are no series of sermons or books by IHOP leaders on any of the Pauline epistles. Let that sink in for a moment. Two thirds of the New Testament is virtually missing in the teaching ministry at IHOP and they have been in operation for over 7 years. There is very little from the gospels either with the exception of Mary of Bethany and the Sermon on the Mount. There are no series from either of Peter’s epistles, or John’s three epistles. I found one sermon out of Jude 3 but the verse was so distorted that the subject was altogether different than the original meaning of the passage. I could go on but I think the point has been made.
And quite frankly, even when passages are referenced, they are rarely actually explained. Mike Bickle’s treatment of Revelation 22:17 in his sermon, “Apostolic Premillenialism” is standard. Bickle roughly says this, “This passage is one of the most critical passages in all the New Testament for the end-time church. It is absolutely essential that the church in this day understand the call of this passage. This verse is one of the clearest and most essential passages for the church in this day. I could literally go on for hours explaining to you the depth of this Scripture. I’m not going to do that today but it is absolutely essential that the church understand this passage.” I’m paraphrasing but I’m really close. I listened to it several times. Bickle references the verse and then spends five minutes of rhetoric on how important the verse is but never once expounds on the supposedly essential teachings contained in the passage.
Support of other false teachers: The list of aberrant teachers endorsed by Mike Bickle is virtually a “Who’s Who” of heretics past and present. We have mentioned on numerous occasions his fascination with Roman Catholic mystics like Teresa of Avila, Madam Guyon, Jan of Norwich, St. John of the Cross and the like. William Branham continues to be endorsed as the greatest modern apostle despite his rejection of the Trinity and other heretical teachings. Bickle claims that John G. Lake has influenced him more than any man other than Jesus and further calls him the greatest intercessor in history despite his little gods theology, communications with the dead, arrest for fraud, and dominionist heresies. (On one CD sermon, Bickle states that he didn’t read anything but Madame Guyon and John G. Lake for an entire month at one point in his ministry.) Bickle refers to Kenneth Hagin, the founder of the Word Faith movement, as the greatest teacher on petitionary prayer in this generation. His support for the Toronto Blessing and the teachings of John and Carol Arnott is well documented. In his book, “Growing in the Prophetic”, Bickle twists Acts 2 to try to find justification for holy laughter. When we come to the modern prophets we find that IHOP sells the books of Rick Joyner, Bill Hamon, Shawn Bolz, Jim Goll, Paul Keith Davis, John Paul Jackson, Chuck Pierce, Dutch Sheets, Jill Austin and on and on. Many of these same teachers are frequent speakers at conferences sponsored by IHOP.
Interestingly, I have never heard or read Mike Bickle quote from any noted Evangelical theologian or pastor other than Wayne Grudem and then it was primarily to disagree with him. I will head off the inevitable disagreement from IHOP’ers here and concede that he has probably done so but it is certainly the exception. The only teachers that don’t seem to regularly make it into Bickle’s vocabulary are those recognized as solidly in the truth.
End Result: We are producing a generation that is zealous without knowledge. Look at the teachers that have come out of the Bickle system; Jim Goll, Kirk Bennett, John Paul Jackson, Jill Austin, Shawn Bolz, Paul Cain, and Bob Jones. Each of these teachers have serious deficiencies in their doctrine. Sam Storms and Michael Sullivant are the exceptions to the rule and Sam, at least, got his primary training elsewhere. Shawn Bolz is to my mind the quintessential example since he was with Bickle since high school. We dedicated two entire blog entries to noting Bolz’s teachings. We have had students in Forerunner School of Ministry post on this blog who couldn’t give a clear explanation of the gospel even though they had been in class for several months. They have no idea how to rightly divide the Word of God. They are completely unfamiliar with church history. (In fact they exhibit a general disdain for the historical faith. And why shouldn’t they? After all none of the previous generations of Christianity received the fullness they have been promised.) These items are the standard fare for the initial two semesters of any good Bible college. In what sense is FSM giving them training?
It is interesting to note that in several conversations current leaders at IHOP have attempted to disavow themselves from some of these very teachers they, or their parent ministry KCF/Metro, have produced. I have been told that IHOP must be judged on its own merits alone. But if an IT school consistently graduated students who were unprepared to work on computers, the school would itself gain a poor reputation. In the same way, a school of ministry that consistently produces people with little grounding in the faith or the ability to properly handle the Word of God must be accountable for its product.
Faulty hermeneutic
Aberrant doctrine and practices
Lack of balance
Support of other false teachers
End result
You draw your own conclusion.
240 Comments


Keith, thank you for being a pastor who does have the courage to speak out. I hope it will set an example fro others to address this from their pulpits, especially those pastors in the charismatic church. We simpy cannot leave a legacy of half truths and false doctrine to the next generation, even if we have to go against popular opinion in the charismatic church.
mbaker,
Thanks for the kind words. How is your daughter doing? I have been praying for her off and on since reading your message on the bulletin board.
-k
I talked to her this afternoon. They have removed her from the ventilator. if the lung stays inflated, she will be able to go home Thursday and recuperate there. If not, and I don’t even want to think about that, they will have to remove the upper lobe of her lung which has blisters they call “blips” on it. It is hereditary and they aren’t sure what causes it. Her father had to have his right lung removed at 35, and then his left one collapsed a month later, but he has been healthy ever since. She will have to live with the blips if she doesn’t have the surgery, and be very careful for a few months, which will be hard for an active young person like she is. i can only hope this will bring her much closer to the Lord. She appreciates all the prayers. She was very touched to know so many are praying for her. Thank you so much for being one of them, Keith.
Blessings.
mbaker,
Thanks for the update. I’m continuing to pray. This really helps to know how to pray specifically. I’m praying for you and your husband as well.
Keep the reports coming as you have more information.
-k
Thanks, Keith. So far the lung has stayed pretty much inflated since she’s been off the ventilator, but they want to keep her one more day to be sure it’s fully inflated There is one weak area he wants to make sure of before releasing her. Thanks again for your prayers and concern. They are so very appreciated in times like these. Hope this is not detracting from this excellent post. I’ll post the next update on the Bulletin Board so it doesn’t. Thanks again.
great post. i have several friends including my former pastor that just left for Ihop last week. when i confronted my old pastor about ihops doctrinal issues he said that he was aware that 50% of it was heresy but to look at the fruit. ahhhhh! it breaks my heart. i think Ihop heck all of the prophetic movement suffers from a post modern christian reletivism where yeah Charnock is good but so is joyner. its as if they would all get along famously in the same room. i can see johnathan edwards and duth sheets just havin a ball together. somthing else that is interesting to me in this post and i know i have mentioned it before but the order of melchizedek priesthood? isnt that running alittle close to joseph smith? this whole concept of dont you dare use your brain at this church meeting is scary stuff, but it seems to be on the rise. heres a thought what if the emergent conversation and the prophetic movement were to merge i mean they are already pretty close in so many ways. that would be frightening.
Jarrod,
That has been my concern at my own church who are Purpose Driven, IHOP theologically (intercessory prayer ministry), Tabernackle of David (latter rain worship ministry)and now more recently preaching Donald Miller and his book. Now mind you this is what is infiltrating different ministries in the church, but they will come together in due time and then watch out.
I am looking for another fellowship….
Jarrod,
Yes the IHOP teaching on the Melchizedek priesthood is very similar to the Mormon version. Both mistakenly believe that it can be possessed by us.
-k
iwant
No doubt you mean blue like jazz. but that book is little red riding hood compared to some of the stuff by rob bell. i will pray that you find a good fellowship with a pastor who will hold the line. god bless
The difficulty with Rob Bell is that you can NEVER KNOW FOR SURE WHAT HE IS SAYING…this is not by accident. He is a very gifted communicator.
Propositional thinkers may leave thinking, “yea, I can see where he is coming from.” And post modern college students walk away believing that Hell is a garbage dump in Palestine, Heaven is how you feel when you give a buck to a homeless person, and the highest calling of the Christian life is environmentalism.
Yes, I did read the book, when I found it on my daughters shelf.
-r
Actually the book was “Looking for God Knows What” but “Blue Like Jazz” was in the book store….. “burp”
Personally, I think if you follow the Rick Warren model you will evolve into an Emergent!!!
just a little clarity,
i personall know Donald Miller. He serves out of a very conservative church in portland called imago dei. He is in no way a emergent type. the use his material. but to compare him to Rob Bell is to alinate one of your own.
mike
by the way the book is “searching for God knows what”
I’m so worried about the next generation of Christians (and my own), especially in the charasmatic fringe. I know many young Christians who are a part of this movement that consider Bible reading and study very low on their list of priorities, citing that ‘loving God’, prayer and praise are the all you need to do to engage with God. Grace is used as a lisence to sin which breeds a lack of reverence and fear for Him.
If they are quizzed/questioned about their faith, they have no idea how to respond and come across as bumbling fools who don’t know what they are believing in. They cannot back up any of the arguments or even the basis of doctrines they ascribe to - unable to find anything in scripture to back up, well, anything. So, when another false teacher comes along, they swallow up everything on offer because they don’t know any better because they don’t use the Word of God in their lives. They can’t check or discern anything because they are without biblical knowledge and understanding, so everything and anything goes. I know so many people who lack even the very basics in fundametal Christianity - the sad thing is they are quite happy to continue on like that because no one is picking them up about it. if you do, you get called religious, legalistic and judgemental!!! It’s something I’m genuinely concerned about and with things like IHOP they are exciting and capture the unguarded mind. The doctines sound out of this world and I think that appeals to a lot of young people bored with ‘regular Christianity’.
Excellent points Sarah. I agree this generation of Christians is very Biblically illiterate. So indeed they lead with their feelings, throwing their hearts into whatever sounds the best, without discerning what is actually right. And in the time of testing that comes on every believer in some way or other, as you stated, simply loving God, and having prayer and praise will not be enough to carry you through all of those times compared to the knowing and standing on the Word of God. Sooner or later your faith will be tested, and you will need to know what you believe and why you believe it or else you could be moved away form the hope of the gospel and not even realize it. The Word of God is all important and many have cast it aside for the latest fad experience in Christianity somehow rationalizing an experience with God as being all that is needed to fall more passionately in love with Jesus. Loving Jesus is important, but without knowing His Word how do you know whom it is you say you’re loving? If it is based only on experience, then it is nothing more then mystical, and the devil can counterfeit that with out any difficulty at all. Before you know it, you could find yourself bound and lead away following another Jesus, another gospel, or another spirit while still having all those wonderful mystical expereinces.
Amen…Amen…Amen.
A week ago a saw a crowd of college age students told that it was the normal Christian experience to routinely “talk to angels, demons, devils and dead saints”. Is it possible that this is related, at least in principle, to 1 Tim. 4?
I don’t see the forbidding of marriage…..YET.
Couple this with a total abandonment of any standard of worship (Hebrews 12:2
and you have pagan worship practices mixed in. Scary!
Mike let me respond to you regarding Don Miller.
I am in no way attacking the person. I am sure he is a wonderful man. I don’t know him so I cannot judge him.
I do know that there is very little difference between him and Mr. Bells theological beliefs. After reading both authors, there is just too much consistency in them both. I do not think this is the post to go farther into it. If a post on emergent church does come up, which it has in the past http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/2006/07/20/the-emergent-church/ I will be glad to discuss further.
i will post over there
jarrod,
In the red corner…Bickle and Bell. But who is coming out swinging from the white corner Jarrod? Rob Bell is one of my Discipleship and Evangelism professor’s favorites. He showed the “Dust” video on the first day of class. I don’t think he likes me a lot. But, hey ease off on old Don Miller. I mean, its about time Christianity had its own Jack Kerouac, right?
Rob:
In my last church this was pretty standard! My cousin (who was only 11 at the time) thought he saw a demon one day (I don’t know what he thought he saw to make him think it was that - perhaps the preaching at the time? I don’t know) and after that every time someone had prayer or ‘deliverence’ he would be brought over and asked what he could see. In the end he became so terrified he refused to go to church anymore. My mum and her sister frequently tell me they see angels and demons; one time my aunt looked out the window in the town and claimed she saw a demon in the street, so she ran outside and began frantically ’slaying’ this supposed demon with an invisible sword!! This was all standard fare and actively encouraged at my last church. Young people were especially encouraged to take part and those of us who wouldn’t (me and my youngest brother) were called heard-hearted and unbelieving.
I was just reading through all of these comments. I must say it is very interesting to see what others think about the prophetic movement, being that i am part of that. I have read my bible back and forth and can quote scripture with the best. I have studied church history and can give a sound biblical answer to just about any question. Yet having all that head knowledge did not fulfill me. Being able to meet with God and experience his manifested presence does fulfill me. The reason why so many young people have turned to movement like IHOP is because they are hungry for more than dead works, that they see demonstrated in the lives of certain types of “Christians” IHOP is no more a cult, or involved in herasy than i am Marilyn Monroe. The bible says that “we know in part, and prophesy in part.” It isnt for ANY MAN to have all the answers now, so there will be mistakes or error in any church doctrine. This doesnt make it a “CULT” it just makes it human. You ought to be thankful that your children and friends have a thirst or hunger for God! Better that than Cocaine or Heroine! Do you think that God is so little, that he cant handle the falicies of man, or religion? Jesus said, “If you seek me, you will find me.” These kids are seeking, and they will surley find, because God is not at liar!
Surely, God is not a liar. But the folks that are the ‘prophets’ in this movement are consistently wrong. God is an unchanging God– unchanging in nature– He does not allow His prophets to be wrong, as these folks on the forefronts tend to be.
I often hear ‘we are under grace’ or these people are learning to be precise… Show me once where any one prophet in the NT has been wrong or where anyone had to teach them how to be a prophet.
The bottom line is, a good majortiy of us have been involved in this movement, myself included. It was the severe botching of Scripture by one of these ‘prophets’ speaking for God in the first person that made me realize this was not from God.
And I would go out on a limb to say that following apostacy is NOT better than any street drug. Its just as damaging in my opinion.
Melissa,
Many here would not label IHOP a cult. I don’t…YET. But I would point out that no cult starts out to become one. It starts with a departure from the TRUTH…often a subtle departure from the TRUTH. In light of that, IHOP’s history and present course are cause for legitimate concern.
With you, we are very thankful that our children have a hunger and thirst for God. We also desperately want that thirst to be satisfied with the real Living Water. We simply aren’t willing to accept passion as the sole marker of authenticity. Many of us readily admit our biases. I have a son in this movement. I love him dearly, and it grieves me to see him wrestle with almost paralyzing confusion when trying to reconcile God’s Word against what he has been prophetically told and experienced.
Choosing between Heresy and Cocaine is an unacceptable choice.
Thank you for your comments. God’s Blessings on you.
-r
Dear Melissa,
I was involved in the charismatic church >> prophetic church for about 30 years.
A few years ago I heard one of the prophets featured on the elijah list prophecy that my pastor would write a book. I thought that odd because this pastors writing skills were very poor; it was plainly not his calling.
Later we find out that the prophet was sleeping with his daughter’s fiance, and the pastor was in a relationship with the church’s piano player (not the pastor’s wife).
And to tie this in with IHOP, we find out that Mike Bickel’s most highly esteemed prophet was a drunken sodomite.
Indeed, God can “handle the fallacies of man.” I fear greatly for these men (and women), becuase indeed they will be “handled”. Many have caused others to stuble and they will be judged; it would be better for millstones to be hung around thier necks…
So the concern is not for God, but for many of the people caught up in tihis.
The culture of prophecy that pleases men, and tickles thier ears - “It doesn’t matter if this is reallly what God says because we only prophecy in part” - is a culture that encourages deciet in other areas of our lives. It de-empahsises personal holiness while empahsising experience. And the higher we elevate experience (feelings) over the Word of God, the more likely we are to base our lives on feelings. And as we are all aware, not all of our feelings are Godly.
Eventuially we start trusting what we feel (even though we only know in part) more than the Word of God. Many/Most in the prophetic movement believe that certain leveis of prophetic inspiriation are HIGHER than the written Word of God. Some have stated that the Bible is “stale manna.” And so the scripture become twisted ti support the error.
Its not a matter of Dead Church vs. exciting church. Its truth vs. deception.
The posters on this blog come from all sorts of backgrounds. Some may offend you as they offend me. I hope you can get past this and look closely at what is really happening in the prophetic church.
I woke up one day and said “wait a minute, I didn’t sign up for this.” I
I’ve escaped from it, but I still enjoy my intimate times with the Lord. Its not an either/or proposition.
Blessings to you.
-Bill
FIXED TYPOS - EYES GETTING TIRED
Dear Melissa,
I was deeply involved in the charismatic church >> prophetic church for about 30 years.
A few years ago I heard one of the prophets featured on the elijah list prophecy that my pastor would write a book. I thought that odd because this pastors writing skills were very poor; it was plainly not his calling.
Later we found out that the prophet was sleeping with his daughter’s fiance, and the pastor was in a relationship with the church’s piano player (not the pastor’s wife).
And to tie this in with IHOP, we find out that Mike Bickel’s most highly esteemed prophet was a drunken sodomite.
Indeed, God can “handle the fallacies of man.” I fear greatly for these men (and women), becuase indeed they will be “handled”. Many have caused others to stumble and they will be judged; it would be better for millstones to be hung around thier necks…
So the concern is not for God, but for many of the people caught up in this.
The culture of prophecy that pleases men, and tickles thier ears - “It doesn’t matter if this is reallly what God says because we only prophecy in part” - is a culture that encourages deceit in other areas of our lives. It de-empahsises personal holiness while emphasising experience. And the higher we elevate experience (feelings) over the Word of God, the more likely we are to base our lives on feelings. And as we are all aware, not all of our feelings are Godly.
Eventually we start trusting what we feel (even though we only know in part) more than the Word of God. Many/Most in the prophetic movement believe that certain leveis of prophetic inspiriation are HIGHER than the written Word of God. Some have stated that the Bible is “stale manna.” And so the scripture become twisted to support the error.
It is not a matter of Dead Church vs. exciting church. It is truth vs. deception.
The posters on this blog come from all sorts of backgrounds. Some may offend you as they offend me. I hope you can get past this and look closely at what is really happening in the prophetic church.
I woke up one day and said “wait a minute, I didn’t sign up for this.” I’ve escaped from it, but I still enjoy my intimate times with the Lord. Its not an either/or proposition.
Blessings to you.
-Bill
Melissa,
Thanks for stopping by.
Typical of those who post here from the prophetic movement, you did not address any of the issues of the original blog. It really would be nice if you would do that rather than attempting to divert the discussion to other issues.
Having said that, I will respond to a few of your comments since I’m the one that started this thread.
You wrote:
“I have read my bible back and forth and can quote scripture with the best. I have studied church history and can give a sound biblical answer to just about any question.”
Wow. Then you are certainly the exception in your movement. What is the sound Biblical answer that justifies the Toronto Blessing or the many extra-Biblical doctrines from the prophetic movement that I mentioned in my post?
You wrote:
“Yet having all that head knowledge did not fulfill me. Being able to meet with God and experience his manifested presence does fulfill me.”
Here you reveal your true source of authority. You have had an experience. You have a testimony. Many of us have testimonies too. Testimonies of being burned by false prophecies, of tiring of endless hype, of burnout from the pure emotionalism of this movement. Whose testimony wins?
The fact is that testimonies are easy to come by and don’t really prove much on their own. Our source of authority really should be the Word of God.
You wrote:
“You ought to be thankful that your children and friends have a thirst or hunger for God! Better that than Cocaine or Heroine!”
So is this what the Christian life is reduced to? Just a better high? One with less side effects and no risk of arrest?
And though I know this will offend you deeply, I think you have actually stumbled onto something true here but without intending it. It is the HIGH that many of these kids are seeking. Many of those in this movement (and I know a number) are not truly seeking God but rather the next experience, the next power surge, the promise of end-time greatness.
You wrote:
“Jesus said, “If you seek me, you will find me.” These kids are seeking, and they will surley find, because God is not at liar!”
Actually, this quote is from Jeremiah but that’s beside the point. The fact is that God is not obligated to reveal Himself to those who seek an experience through unbiblical means. Nor is He obligated to protect us when we place ourselves under false teachers. A person may sincerely use Peyote seeking an experience with God but God is not obligated to honor that.
You wrote:
“IHOP is no more a cult, or involved in herasy than i am Marilyn Monroe.”
I’m tempted to ask you to list the theological and sociological characteristics of a cult but I won’t. Though I don’t believe that IHOP is a full-blown cult yet, as Drew and I will be posting shortly, the table is certainly set and already many of their characteristics are cultic. And as was pointed out by another respondent, few groups start out to be cults.
It is true that no one has all the answers now but the teachings of the prophetic movement consistently contradict the historic Christian faith and I don’t just mean in secondary issues. The prophecies of the major players in the prophetic movement are consistently wrong. These two issues alone should cause any serious observer to see that these men are not hearing from God nor are they speaking for God.
-k
Melissa,
Perhaps you nailed it more then you realize…” Yet having all that head knowledge did not fulfill me.” The Word of God is more then head knowledge when God is indeed in it. Why you say that it wasn’t any more than that I don’t know, but the Word of God is fulfilling all by itself with out all of the other “experiences” added to it. When He is alive in the pages, then why does anything need to be added to it to make it complete?
You speak of “certain types of “Christians”” as if there were more then one kind and you should go shopping around until you find a flavor that appeals to you or something. Not that finding the right group of believers to fellowship isn’t important, it’s just that Christianity isn’t about Christians, it’s supposed to be about Christ and our relationship is with Him. If our we piggyback our relationship with Him off of others, then how real of a relationship do we really have with Jesus in the first place is my concern. Unfortunately we are yet fleshly and haven’t been perfect to the world, but that doesn’t change the real message of the Gospel. And that is Christ and Him crucified. Not me, not you, not anyone else but Jesus. So when I hear about it being a comparison of people, I do wonder where the real relationship lies…with God or with people.
Now I don’t think the works of the Bible are dead works no more then do I believe that just because something is new and different that it is automatically to be considered of God. Yes, some believers are more somber in their relationship with the Lord, but does that make them unsaved and dead? No, not by any means. So just to say that young people are tired of dead works is to insult the very real salvation of so many. Actually, I think it’s a disservice to young people to expect no more of them then just “experience” without the discipline of being a Christian in all ways, one being to study to show ones self approved, versus all ways looking for more enthusiastic times in worship or such.
And by your statement I would then have to call you Marilyn Monroe because IHOP isn’t founded on correct scriptural grounds and is involved in heresy. For claiming to know church history so well, I’m not so sure you know the last 60+ years as well as maybe you should. Particularly the thread of Latter Rain heresy that runs right through Kansas City, Kansas City Metro Church, aka Mike Bickle, and now IHOP.
Furthermore, I am tired of hearing that “we know in part, and prophesy in part” as an excuse to deny the parts I do know are true. Just because we may not know it all, so to speak, does not mean that what we DO know is somehow flawed and should be questioned. By applying the logic of that statement to our salvation, then how do we really know we’re saved? Because the Bible says so? But, how can we really know what the Bible says then because no matter what we still only know in part? That’s the error of taking that statement to somehow justify not trying things because we may not really understand.
Then to somehow compare children hooked on drugs to what’s false is like comparing apples to oranges. It’s also better to just be a shoplifter then a serial killer, but I don’t want my children to be either. Once more a straw man argument of an extreme to compare against and then shoot down. Not all kids in the first place are hooked on drugs and not all of them will be, EVER. Some might be, but that is a false argument for the majority, especially those at someplace like IHOP. And as far as hungry for God, I do want kids to be hungry for God, but I don’t want to sell them out for anything less then the real thing either.
And finally, I too don’t think God is God is so little, that he can’t handle the fallacies of man, or religion. It’s just, if I’m getting where you coming from on this, that God’s way of handling them will be something other then keeping them from their own false ways. Sometimes, God just simply judges what is false and other times He lets the tares and wheat grow together. Does that mean that the tares are right and get to boast against the wheat because they aren’t judged right away? Seeking God is good, but the only real way to seek Him is His way, not just any way that has the name of Jesus attached to it. I am reminded of Is. 1:18, ““Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. “Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.” We seek God only in the way He says, not just any old way expecting to find God like He will be the prize at the end of the rainbow. He said, Let us reason. He spoke and man had to listen, then accept or reject – NOT NEGOAITE.
And the same is still true today.
Keith mentioned something about the ‘HIGH’ that many within IHOP, Toronto, and other movements seek out.
That is a very astute observation because many people that came to Christ in these or similar movements have a history of chronic drug usage. I have also noticed that the older ones in their late 50’s / early sixties express their love for the Summer of love and the hippie movement of the late 1960’s. I believe that many of them actually ‘miss’ the high they experienced on drugs like pot, cocaine, LSD, etc. that they are looking for something similar to satisfy them.
They see themselves as the revolutionaries against the ‘establishment’ (institutionalized church) that rejected them in the 1960’s and today still are fighting the war to overthrow the established core foundational truths of the Scriptures for their ‘new thing’ to come into existence.
Just read through this thread and I wanted to comment about IHOP not forbidding to marry–yet. Well Rob, you are correct, however there are those at IHOP that claim to be married to Jesus in the natural sort of way. There is one female (I will not identify) that actually had a full marriage ceremony to Jesus. She was carried in on a palanquen in a wedding dress, had a ceremony with an IHOP pastor, got a ring, changed her first name legally(I guess she did not know Jesus’s last name) and had a honeymoon. I see a LOT wrong with all of that. The other thing I would like to say is that there have been IHOP staff members taken to the hospital as a direct result of fasting too much/too long and tried to refuse treatment because an IV was nourishing food and it would break their fast. The parents had to came in and intervine. One mother said she had to rescue her daughter because if the doctors had not treated her she could have died. One thing about cults is that they always seem to do things in excess. OK maybe IHOP is not a cult but they have already stepped over the edge in several areas.
The addage “I had an experience, it was good, it must be god” is NOT the plumb line we are to measure our spiritual encounters by. I believe Jesus warned about that quite plainly. he knew already that even as the end time approaches the deception would become greater and greater. May we all discern correctly.
“OK maybe IHOP is not a cult but they have already stepped over the edge in several areas.
This takes the cake! With what you have shared about IHOP. I will not entertain “maybe IHOP is not a cult…”
IT IS A CULT>>>>> That is pure excess at it’s worse.
Beth,
A couple of quick questions for clarification. I know another person that related either this same story or a very similar one to me about the woman and the wedding ceremony.
Did she get married at IHOP or go away for that? (The woman I know about went to a nunnery for a time before the ceremony)
Did the IHOP leaders bless this event or was this done without their blessing? I ask this because, while I believe the bridal paradigm encourages wierd behavior like this, there would still be a difference between the leaders blessing this event and someone who took their teachings to an even larger extreme and did it on their own.
I hope this makes sense.
-k
i dont understand the honeymoon part at all…. (well… the rest is just as bizarre— but what does one do on a honeymoon with Jesus?)
Keith-
I know who shared with you and we know tha same info. We also have the same opinions (but we are not the same person!)
the wedding was at IHOP in the old portable building and Gary Weins did the ceremony if I remember correctly. There were invitations and the whole shooten’ match for a wedding. I do not know if Bickle was there but the use of the space had to be approved. I know that the guest list included most of the IHOP leadership. Julie Meyer was like the wedding coordinator. I do believe the” bride” went to the nunnery before hand but so do a lot of the staff at IHOP. I never understood until now the facination with things Catholic at IHOP but just look at the books they promote (among other things)
I can tell you that she legally changed her first name because she wanted everything to reflect the change but legally your taxes and government papers have to remain the same unless you get the legal papers.
I actually spoke with the mother of the fasting girl. She said that getting her free from IHOP was like you see relatives going into cults to get their kids out. Her daughter is fine now but they do not talk a lot about it. I told her she should because it may save other parents that thiink they are doing the right thing sending their kids to IHOP .
Beth,
Thank you so much for the clarification. I did not have all of these details (I had not had the opportunity to discuss this issue in depth with our mutual friend).
This is very distressing. I did not realize that Wiens performed the ceremony.
I don’t know why but I continue to be amazed at some of the things that have taken place at IHOP. The deception proves to be deeper and deeper.
Thanks for your help.
Please continue to give us information like this. I can study the teachings but I was never part of the inner workings so I have to evaluate as an outsider.
-k
Yes, indeed this in VERY distressing. The more that is being revealed the worse it is becoming. It does sound more and more to me like the workings of a cult with its secretive inner workings and ceremonies. I wonder just how much it’s going to take for outsides to begin to realize this. I am thankful to those here that are providing your testimonies. It gives an incredible amount of much needed light on what really goes on at IHOP. Some may answer that it’s only a few that are going off the deep end with some of these practices, but when leadership gets involved and you start to see approval of these things at that level then you know where they’re really coming from. Words can’t cover up actions that sanction such cult like practices. I pray that God does continue to expose in His Light all that isn’t right with IHOP, not to shame the people, but that His Truth would most of all come forth and trump the lies and deception of Satan at work there.
-God Bless
i was at one of these wedding ceremonies a few years back but it wasnt an ihop thing our pastor did it for a friend. who is coincedently at ihop now with my former pastor. at the time i didnt see anything wrong with it but i sure do now. this is some crazy stuff. and that is t.r.u. i thought you knew. man may God have mercy.
it should not come as too much of a surprise. That is essentually what the nuns do when they finish their training at the nunnery. They have a marriage ceremony (in a group) in wedding gowns and they get a gold wedding band. I always thought it made god look like a polygamist. (at least SOME god-I am not sure it the the same one I serve)
There was an IHOP conference in 03 I think that the national lay leader of the Catholic church spoke. At the time we were not yet that involved in IHOP and I thought it was so strange to have a Catholic teaching. He talked al about Nouwen, Keating,Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross. (as a side note I purchased “Dark Night of the Soul” by St. John at a yard sale recently. the owner of the book was licenced minister for UNITY-interesting). Anyway, I had no idea who these people were except that they were being quoted by a Catholic teacher. I over heard several ladies talking afterward saying that they were so happy to know that the Catholices were actually correct and the Prostants had just tried to give them a bad name.
Now I know some great people that are Catholics in fact most of my family were Catholic but come on–even as a child I knew they prayed to dead people and the Pope is just a man like the rest of us. My Bible tells me Mary was a godly woman but she was not god and to pray to her is necromancy and you better stay away from that.
BUT look closely at IHOP and you will see a lot of Catholic teaching here and there. It has not been uncommon to see a Catholic priest in the pulpit. Before I left there was an Italian priest that came to speak and noted that the IHOP community seemed like a monestary to him. (some of the stuff that goes on at IHOP would shrink the priest’s robes and might cause him to take that back)
Just some random thoughts as I am still sorting out the stuff at IHOP. I am not sure Iwill ever make total sence of it all.
Beth,
I am not sure but I think Teresa of Avila was involved in catholic mysticism. I would have to check, but perhaps the catholic mystics appeal to Ihop teachers because of the extra biblical mystical experiences and contemplative prayer.
Sorry that was me under a different name.
am not sure but I think Teresa of Avila was involved in catholic mysticism.
This is correct.
yes, all of those listed are into mysticism. Most of the books that I have by them (I call it my heresy library) I cannot even read– they are so far out there. I keep them for reference but i cannot really read much of what is in there. Pretty out there. some sound like they have been in the drugs. Unbelievable that anyone can get enough out of this bunch of mystics to make a doctrine about anything.
May the grace & peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Hi all,
I am currently a student at IHOP, with the Forerunner Music Academy, and I was intrigued as I read through this post and all of the comments. There were just a few things that I wanted to say….
Concerning Melissa’s post, when she speaks of how the “head knowledge” that she had of Theology didn’t fulfill her. I can completely relate. I was blessed to have been raised in the Church and I have wonderful parents who taught me the basics of the faith. However, after much Biblical study, I came to a startling revelation. I knew much about God, yet I had never truly sought to know God Himself. Like the Pharisees, I had all the languague, I had all the key Bible verses memorized, I could take someone through the steps to salvation, yet very little of these awesome truths had been translated into living realities within me. Don’t get me wrong: the knowledge IS a good thing. But the knowledge results in nothing if it doesn’t become alive in me on the heart level. One of the things that IHOP has encouraged me to do is to not be content with just the head knowledge, but to seek to allow the Word to be living and active within me: through meditiation on the Word, contemplative prayer, and then going from that place to live out the Word on a radical level.
Many of the commenters generalized and made statements that suggest that the Bible is of secondary importance to the leadership at IHOP. While I in no way claim to know all the intricacies of IHOP doctrine, allow me to reassure you that this is not the case. I have never been a part of a community where the Word of God is more highly valued (and that’s ALL of the Bible, including the Pauline Epistles). The classes at the schools in IHOP encourage and exhort each person to get deep into the Bible….as it should be.
Also: to those that are quick to label IHOP as a cult. One of the awesome things about IHOP is the humility of the leadership team. In every class that I have taken or teaching that I have sat under I have NEVER felt pressured to automatically take their word to be the absolute truth. They encourage questioning and exhort us to search the scriptures for ourselves to see if what they are saying is true. As one of my instructors put it, don’t just run straight off the IHOP cliff. Be cautious and pray for a spirit of discernment in all things. Does that sound like policy that a cult would adopt?
In all fairness, however, I must agree (to a certain extent) with one of the statements made in this thread. Someone wrote something about how a the youth are being attracted to IHOP not out of a true hunger for God, but out of a hunger for experience, for new spiritual highs. Sadly, I have seen this. This is an excess that is present in most Charismatic/Pentacostal circles. There are always going to be those that stick around just to experience the “fire” or the newest manifestation. But please: don’t lump all of us into that catagory.
So…that’s all a really want to say. I don’t really want to get into a big debate or anything….I just thought that this wall needed some balance. Poor Mellissa was all by herself.
Oh yeah….concerning Keith’s comment about the FSM students that were unable to explain basics of the Christian faith. Here’s one that thinks he would be able to. So if you care to try me…go ahead.
God bless you all….
Oh, and yes the whole getting married to Jesus thing sounds weird to me as well. I’ve never seen that happen, so don’t worry. It’s not normal IHOP policy.
We’ll I am deeply saddened that this blog would even be posted. For one I dont quite understand why we as humans have to look upon a ministry and start to break down the wrongs and rights. Why cant we look at our own lives and ministrys first. The first thing we should do in our walk with the Lord is seek first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness. What ever happened to the ten commandments? As for the comment on IHOP being “sloppy”, most teachersat IHOP leave the door open to spark an interest so that the students will engage in the word and find out for them selves what the Word says. However Icould see how this could come acrossas”sloppy” to the person looking to find faults. To the individual who commented about the old pastor who claimed it as herressy. It sounds like maybe you are a confronting person and maybe in your old pastors weekness he did not want to take the time to explain because he knew that you were trying to tell him that he is wrong. Just a theroy. Only you, him, and God know the real motives in that. There is so much more to say. (cont.)
(cont.) |To the individual who said they were going to leave the church to find another I highly recomend reading the book by John Beveer “The Bait of Satan”. So what really is the motive here? My motive is to simply challenge all of you to ask God if this IHOP stuff is wrong. Give God Almighty the chance to show you and dont sell yourselves short. When Jesus told us to seek first the kingdom of God. I feel He means it. The kingdom of God will come to this earth as it is in Heaven. Ask God to reveal his heart to you and wait on Him. Just as a little humor to show that I’m not trying to be ugly: When God comes back and He is looking at us all with our expressions looking like we arte deers caught in the headlights He will say “all of you had it wrong my good and faithfull servants”. And one last thought What are you doing to further the kingdom of GOD?
It is amazing to see how the enemy can twist things in our weak minds to make us all try to dwell on issues that are just tiny distractors. Mr. Gibson what are your theological and socialogical characteristics of what we are to do here on earth? Since you have the gift of discerning spirits. Please teach us something. Dont just point out the wrong in others teach us what you believe to be true. Tell us what you feel is right. Our focus should be on God and God alone. You my brother have caused others to place thier focus elsewhere by starting this blog. I just dont understand why we “Christians can’t just put down our walls and all work together instead of trying to battle over who is right and who is wrong. We are just like the Pharisees. Thier main point was to appera holy to flesh and to point out others faults. Will Christ find faith on earth when he returns. Stop trying to put God in a box. Release Him. Allow him to do a work in your life. All this blog is she said he said and that is the work of the enemy. \You wont find IHOP’ ers trying to dispell the works of another ministry. They want to join together with all Gods people and really go after the kingdom of God. “Take the plank out of your own eye first…” …JESUS
JDThomas,
I’ve read and re-read your post and am having difficulty crafting a succinct response. Perhaps it is better if we just start at a single point.
You said:
>My motive is to simply challenge all of you to ask God if this IHOP stuff is wrong. Give God Almighty the chance to show you and dont sell yourselves short.
I have spent the past eight months asking God that very question. It seems to me that the principle way God instructs us in these matters is through his written Word, the Bible. That is what we discuss here. We have been doing exactly what you want to motivate us to do. We ask the question. Is this IHOP stuff wrong? We wrestle with this, but most of us don’t sit in a room waiting for some feeling to come over us. We use the tools that God has instructed us to use, the principle desideratum being consistent study of the Bible.
-r
Hey folks,
I have had to be away for awhile. I want to respond to a few things.
James,
I hope that you are still reading. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. You wrote:
“Oh, and yes the whole getting married to Jesus thing sounds weird to me as well. I’ve never seen that happen, so don’t worry. It’s not normal IHOP policy.”
If this is true then why did IHOP provide the building for the ceremony? Why did Gary Wiens perform the wedding? Also, I believe that if you check you will discover that several hundred kids “renewed their wedding vows” to Jesus at a Onething conference just a year or so ago at Kemper Arena.
Mr. Thomas,
First, thank you for once again demonstrating that most defenders of the prophetic can only speak in cliche’s. (God in a box, pharisees, can’t we all just get along etc)
I do want to address a couple of the issues you raised.
You wrote:
“It is amazing to see how the enemy can twist things in our weak minds to make us all try to dwell on issues that are just tiny distractors”
How someone deals with the Word of God is not a tiny distractor. Doctrine is not a tiny distractor. Please read the pastoral epistles again and underline every statement that has to do with sound doctrine and then come back and tell me that these are small things.
“Since you have the gift of discerning spirits”
I’ve never made this claim for myself. Personally I consider that my primary spiritual gift is teaching.
You wrote:
“Dont just point out the wrong in others teach us what you believe to be true. Tell us what you feel is right. ”
If you had bothered to read more than one posting you might have found that I give my personal theology and discuss the Word frequently. But I guess it’s too much to expect anything but a knee-jerk reaction from someone like yourself.
You wrote:
“All this blog is she said he said and that is the work of the enemy”
This is blatently untrue. I spent years doing primary source research (reading the prophet’s own stuff, listening to their messages) before ever speaking out. I will guarantee that I have been more even-handed in dealing with them than you have been in your assessment of this blog.
Further, the Bible commands us to mark out those that bring false doctrine. There is a responsibility to contend for the faith, to warn those who might be caught up in falsehood. You should re-read the New Testament epistles and see how many times Paul corrects doctrinal error, even mentioning names in several circumstances.
You wrote:
“You wont find IHOP’ ers trying to dispell the works of another ministry.”
This isn’t completely true. However, part of the reason that IHOP never confronts error is because, as was demonstrated on the IHOP forum discussion, they have no solid idea of how to determine what a false teacher is. And frankly, it is negligent of a minister to never warn his flock about the wolves in sheep’s clothing.
You wrote:
“And one last thought What are you doing to further the kingdom of GOD?”
Read my bio.
-k
Mr. Thomas,
“To the individual who said they were going to leave the church to find another I highly recomend reading the book by John Beveer “The Bait of Satan”.
Sory I won’t read his stuff anymore. Find some greatly distressing error in his theology and I choose to follow only what is sound as found in the scriptures.
Secondly, I believe with all of my heart that the Holy Spirit is leading me away from the false teachings that are prevelant in the church I am going to currently. I must leave out of obedience to the Lord. I am taking God out of the box by being in His box and allowing Him to work in my life in spirit and truth.
Thirdly, I second Robs comment above….
Thank you Rod for your comment. I would like to second that.
JDThomas wrote:
My motive is to simply challenge all of you to ask God if this IHOP stuff is wrong. Give God Almighty the chance to show you and dont sell yourselves short.
I have spend a little over the last two years studing the prophetic movement to include not only Mike Bickle and IHOP, but many of the other “movers and shakers” who are leading the movement. Very little of what I have learned came from this blog since it has only been in the last 2-3 months that I have even known of this site. However I will say that most of what I have discovered in my studies is confirmed here and published in an effort to bring understanding of the Truth, and not in any personal confortational effort aimed an a particular individual. But to say that names aren’t named isn’t ture either because if you are a leader and responsible for spreading error then there is no justification Biblically for not calling it as it is and addressing a leaders error.
I will add that the type of unity that it sounds like you are promoting is detestable to me. It’s a untiy first attitude that say’s turn a blind eye to TRUTH. God has never wanted a “cant’ we all just get along” unity. He has better then that when we are walking in His Truth. So if I have to ignore doctrine and Truth to have unity…NO THANKS!!
here here BBB
We’ll all I can do is ask for an apology from anyone that I may have offended. I am deeply sorry. Sometimes my old prideful, arrogant self comes out and I get excited and start to get an attitude. Definetly not the way to represent the Lord. So please forgive me. I just know the things that I have experianced in Christ and in the Spirit that I get worked up when I read otherwise. I do appreciate you guys taking the time to respond. I am not directly related to IHOP. I started checking them out 2 years ago and am excited about the direction they are heading. I know that Bickle was involved in a ministry a long time ago that had controversies. All the rumors turned out to be false. I am not sure what the ministry was called. Bickle has also said in a couple of his messages that some of his older teachings were off and that he highly stresses everyone to check everything out for themselves. If you get a chance check out billy humphreys from the atlanta house of prayer. The guy is pretty sound in his doctrine. Ounce again that is just my opinnion. I know we all have different ways to look at things so I am sorry that I inflicted my views. bloodboughtbrotherplease try to work through your offense with your church before you leave because it will only follow you. In Christ, Josh
|What is your view on The Call and Lou Engle?
JDThomas,
Your apologies are accepted and you are always welcome to express your opinion. We do try to stick to scripture in backing up what the main issue of the post might be. We all get a bit passionate about what we believe, but that is not what it’s all about. What does the Word of God have to say on the issues discussed and have they been taken in context to the writings in the scripture.
bloodboughtbrotherplease try to work through your offense with your church before you leave because it will only follow you.
Thought this was originally directed to me because I have mentioned many times about finding a place that teaches the word rightly and not based on false theology. Sorry for my what might have seemed rude responseon that.
http://signofjonah.wordpress.com/2007/08/20/the-call-er-the-fall-07/
Here is one post on TheCall
Josh,
No offense taken here.
However, I feel like I need to address something in your most recent post. You wrote:
“I know that Bickle was involved in a ministry a long time ago that had controversies. All the rumors turned out to be false.”
The ministry was Kansas City Fellowship and it created quite a controversy here in KC. But the issues were not rumors and they were not false. The pastor of Full Faith Church of Love at the time, Ernie Gruen (who disgraced himself morally later), exposed a serious amount of false teaching by transcribing portions of the messages being given at KCF. Eventually a group of Charismatic leaders got involved and Mike Bickle ended up submitting himself to John Wimber in order to attempt to bring correction to the ministry. There are some things in Gruen’s report that might be overly strident or over-stated but the basic complaints of the report ie. false prophecy and false teachings are true.
-k
|Thanks for the info I was not clear on the details.
Keith,
A question for you. My pastor made a statement to us several years ago regarding the fall of pastors morally. He stated something that I wish I could remember word for word. It had something to do with their doctrtine being unbalanced and blinding them to the truth about the Lord and themselves. Immorality set in because they were so puffed up in pride that they could not see their own weaknesses. It seems to be true. I would wager that if you looked deeper into many of the ministries exposed on this site you could get down into the layers and find immorality and sexual sin deeply rooted. I know this to be true experientially because while my husband was having an affair he was so deeply involved in reading writings from so called Christian mystics who spoke much like the bridal paradigm folks do using sensual terminology that I believe it sparked lustful thoughts and deceit in him. You would have never believed that he could have ever fallen this way, his walk was seemingly so holy and he prayed all the time…. An unbalanced spiritual walk is destructive, deceptive and subtle. I only say all of this because your post above reminds me of this time in my life.
Keith,
Thanks for this. I have recently discovered your blog here. I have become quite concerned with IHOP and thew new prophetic movement due to the influence they have been gaining on my campus. I’m actually looking for resources to put together a concise but clear packet about the unorthodox beliefs, practices, and prophecies of Mike Bickle and other IHOP associates to show to people like campus ministers who have never critically looked into it. Could you point me in the direction of perhaps someone who has already done that? Your article here is great, but doesn’t have enough direct references for the purpose I have in mind. Email me if you don’t mind. Thanks so much for your service to brothers and sisters in Christ!
Jim,
If Keith hasn’t responded to you just yet, you may wish to look a bit more around this blog. From the main page scroll down a bit and one the left you’ll find some subjects you can click on. Try Bob Jones, Bridal Paradigm, Elijah List, Harp & Bowl, IHOP (there’s more), Mike Bickle, Paul Cain, Modern prophet, modern apostle.
“My child just got involved in IHOP, should I be concerned?”
In a word YES! Be afraid be very afraid. Our daughter was “love bombed” into IHOP as a freshman in college. An honor student through most semesters, she now is doing very little to either begin a career or continue her education; instead she’s in Kansas city “getting closer to God.” If only the God she was getting closer to was the True God and not some conjured up god based on the twisted scripture interpretation of Bickel. At best Bickel is an ignorant man with little regard for the truth. At worst he is an antisemitic heretic who is ruining the lives of many young people for his self-egrandizment and financial gain. I only hope that he is stopped before he does what other cult leaders have done - THINK JONESTOWN FOR EXAMPLE.
Our hearts are broken yet we never lose hope that our daughter will someday realize the hogwash is pure baloney. THERE IS A SPECIAL PLACE IN HELL FOR FALSE PROPHETS (OR IS IT PROFITS?)
Jim, an EXCELLENT book on the whole picture of the movement including IHOP is OTHER SIDE OF THE RIVER which was recommended on Sign of Jonah. You can get it at Lighthouse Trails ministries as well as Amazon.
another good book is NEW WINE OR OLD DECEPTION by Roger Oakland. there are 3 books in the series but this would probably be the one you wanted available at Understanding the Times ministry and Amazon.
I would also recommend listening to the history of IHOP. I think it is still available for the iHOP bookstore. After you listen to the bizarre prophecies that led Bickle to embrace false prophets, you will be amazeed
Ihop basic theology is latter rain/dominion but if you really want to bare bones, it started with the desert fathers-a group of Catholic monks that mixed Catholicism with Eastern religions a long time ago. Good luck reading any of their stuff. I tried and wondered why I did not get it until I left IHOP and now I understand completely! Hope this gets you started.
Kevin, our son got involved in college as well and went to IHOP. I guess fortunately (in an odd way) we followed him there and got it first hand. We all left together but I wish I could say he (in particular) has had a quick recovery. You do not know how much it has affected you till you are out and really awaken to what your were doing. Our prayers for your daughter. I know some VERY intelligent young adults that have truly “wasted their lives” at IHOP. Odd how Bickle chose that phrase…….almost like it was planned.
One thing you cannot accuse Bickle personally of is financial gain. Of anything that is not true to the best of my knowledge. However under the ministry name, he is building quite a kingdom over there in Grandview. Any commercial land that comes up for sale he seems to find the funds to buy it. His wife is a broker and i can definately tell you they have been very busy.
b-
So the wife is getting the financial gain, not Bickle. But it all goes into the same pockets?
FYI Want the truth–
kind of…..the real estate company she owns “donates” to the ministry. It is definately a source of income. The Bickles live very modestly. I had a friend helping them entertain out of town guests and they only had plastic cups with resturant names on them for glasses. Almost too “heavenly” minded for earthly good?????
They recently purched Bickle’s original church building (Metro) and now own at least 3 other properties in walking distance. They own the strip shopping center where the prayer room is and an apartment complex next door to that. They owned another apartment (very old) but I heard they sold it. There was a “prophecy” about the original property so they have never moved too far from that which is across to street to the Pres. Truman old homestead.
Another gee whiz piece of info is that Planned Parenthood used to be where the prayer room is now.
His wife is the broker and both his sons work for the agency.
b-
I’m a very simple man of very plain words. If Mrs. Bickle, and the two Bickle progeny are benefiting from IHOP through their real estate company or any other entity controlled or partly controlled by members of the Bickle family, Bickle is becoming enriched by these dealings; I view that as enriching Mike Bickle. This is why Securities and Exchange filings require disclosure of spousal ownership by spouses of Control Shareholders.
The plastic restaurant cup story notwitstanding - Mike Bickle and/or his family are becoming enriched. Of this you can be sure.
Furthermore, I am terrified that any “religious” leader could under any circumstance say the things he was quoted as saying regarding The Jews. It is patently antisemitic and in this day and age a person, any person, that is this insensitive should be banished from the pulpit. For those who may have missed it the quote appeared on Sept. 1, 2007 in the Isreali National Newspaper Arutz Sheva and can be read in it’s entirity at
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/123697
The actions and theology of Bickle are neither Scripturally correct nor are they Christian. I stand by my earlier comment to any parent facing what we are facing with regard to IHOP - BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID!
As Edmund Burke said so eloquently “All that’s necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing.”
Finally, thank you for your prayers, and your good wishes. They are welcome and needed. It’s funny but if Bickle were polluting the minds of our young by selling drugs we’d all agree that he should be hung, drawn and quartered. We somehow need to realize that using scripture to destroy our young people is more vile and even more damaging.
A bit more on Bickle’s finances from a Charisma article. It seems that Mrs. Bickle’s little realty firm is doing quite nicely renting space to IHOP. Read it yourselves friends:
Real Estate Company Helps Facilitate Ministry
Reprinted from Charisma Magazine November 2005
By Leilani Haywood
in Kansas City, Missouri
Diane Bickle, wife of International House Of Prayer (IHOP) founder Mike Bickle, started a real estate company in 2001 that is a model for effective marketplace ministry. “God told me to do it,” she said. “When God speaks, you don’t know why, you just do it.”
When she heard that still, small voice, Bickle was working for a real estate company while serving as co-pastor of a 3,000-member church in south Kansas City, Mo. She started working in real estate in 1997 for the broker of a small company. “I was in real estate previously, but it was a switch to start my own company.”
The start of the Glad Heart Realty coincided with the launch of the IHOP ministry, which facilitates 24-hour prayer and worship. “People were moving here to be a part of the ministry,” she said. “As the CEO, I could set up the company to facilitate and serve the ministry.”
The connection between IHOP and Glad Heart Realty shows in the prayer meetings that the staff have weekly and their commitment to fast for the first three days of every month. “The House of Prayer has prayer for us on a daily basis,” she said. “I have a prayer meeting with the agents once a week. We pray for our clients, for their health, finances and communication, and we pray for one another.”
In the last five years, 17 people have joined her staff. They are all Christians with a heart to reach the city. “We’re making an impact on the community,” Bickle said. “It’s not uncommon for us to lead clients to the Lord. We’re a presence of light and salt as we move into the community.”
Glad Heart Realty owns the building it’s housed in. The 50,000-square-foot shopping center includes IHOP, a food pantry, a child care center, a coffee shop, a bookstore and an international missions center.
Glad Heart contributes all its corporate profits to IHOP. “After the agents and bills are paid, everything goes to the International House of Prayer,” Bickle said. “We’ve contributed tens of thousands every year. An example is the first year we were in business, we installed stucco on the outside of the shopping center.”
The agents are actively involved with IHOP, and Bickle leads a prayer meeting every Wednesday at 6 am for professionals who want to reach the marketplace. She also has the freedom to pray in the Healing Rooms for two hours every Thursday.
Bob Frasier, founder of the Joseph Company, said he asked Bickle to lead the prayer meeting. “Diane is an example of where God is leading many business people, to make Jesus the center of their pursuit, and prayer as the chief methodology,” he said.
Glad Heart client Cindy Dodd said Bickle’s faith-based business approach set her apart from other real estate companies. “When Diane came to look at our house, she said we had three strikes against us but because of our motive for selling the house, she believed God would move on our behalf,” said Dodd, who wanted to sell her 3,800-square-foot home because of the time it took to care for it.
“The first person who looked at our house decided to buy it,” she said. “I was so glad to have a real estate agent who trusts God.”
Since Glad Heart opened its doors in 2001, Bickle says there has been an impact on the community. “Property values have risen around the shopping center because of the quality of residents moving in who are joining IHOP,” she said.
IHOP also has purchased two apartment complexes near the shopping center. The complexes are full of hundreds of students attending IHOP’s ministry-training center.
Bickle said she drew the name of her company from Scripture. “Hebrews 1:9 says Jesus was the gladdest person who ever lived,” she said. “This truth that Jesus is kind and happy about people has really impacted me. I decided this would be the personality of this business. I wanted Glad Heart Realty to reflect the gladness Jesus has when He reaches people.”
The name piques people’s curiosity and sets the tone for the working relationship with clients. “All of the agents have a reputation for honesty and hard work,” Bickle said. “Our clients and other real estate companies know that we are different.”
What’s the next step for Glad Heart Realty? “I’m praying for wisdom and expecting miracles in my business,” Bickle said “I’m expecting that we are going to lay hands on the sick and they will be healed. It’s about the harvest, that’s why we’re doing what we’re doing.”
Kevin,
I’m jumping in to this conversation mid-stream, and may have missed something. Mike Bickle is quoted in the article you attached to your comment:
Rev. Mike Bickle of Kansas City, Mo., who used the phrase “unsaved Jews” and said a Satan-like leader “will be required to exterminate the Jewish race.”
While I’m eschatologically uncommitted and am particularly unpersuaded by the “Left Behind” model, there are a lot of reasonable and godly men who teach that a final Anti-Christ (satanic) figure or force will perpetrate horrific persecution against the Jewish people. And Jews, like all mankind, are unsaved apart from Christ.
I am not a Bickle/IHOP fan, but what exactly are you objecting to here?
We need to be very careful about how we carry on this conversation. We win no hearts and minds by alluding to the leaders of this movement being “hung, drawn and quartered”.
God Bless
Jim B.
Thanks for your comments, mine follow.
My view is that this rhetoric which demonizes Jews as “unsaved” and and in the clearest of terms requiring extermination, is patently antisemitic. Nothing reasonable or holy about that Jim. It just serves to fan the flames of hatred - by preaching of of the “Left Behind” model! Afterall, don’t all good Christians want Jesus to come back? Well the reason he’s not is those darned Jews are still in Isreal and until they either accept Jesus or die - well He just ain’t willing to come. And I thought the Inquisition had ended.
Furthermore, the “hung, drawn and quartered” statement referred to drug dealers - but certainly a literal interpretation of the bible envisions worse punishment for false prophets. For example:
“Jer 14:15 Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.
Jer 14:16 And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.”
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Do you prefer then that I stay with direct biblical quotation rather than references to hung, drawn and quartered? Not trying to be argumentitive but the bible is quite clear on the subject of those who woiuld mislead in the name of God.
On another note, is anyone aware of the relationship, if any between any Bickle entity and Kingdom Financial. I came across a blog entry that indicate that a Luke Bickle was associated with it but couldn’t ascertain if it was in fact Mike Bickle’s son. Also very little seems to be written about Kingdom Financial other than what appears on their website at:
http://www.kingdomfinanceseminar.com/welcomeminister.php
Any information may be helpful.
For now, I pray that the Lord makes me his instrument to expose Bickle for what he really is - sunlight is a very effective disinfectant indeed!
Thanks,
Kevin
O my look at the home page….Guess who. Thought the vision and terms looked familiar. Yike!!!!
Kevin,
I read the quote by Bickle above and I’m not sure I see him saying what you have interpreted. He calls Jews “unsaved”. In John 14:6 Jesus left little room for getting to the Father except through him. I would interpret that to mean that most Jewish people who reject Jesus (like most Gentiles) are “unsaved”. I don’t see the anti-semitic slant to this.
As far as the the Anti-christ perpetuating atrocities against the Jews, many believe the book of Daniel and The Revelation predict this. Acknowledging this is not the same as advocating it. I predict that Iran may eventually perpetrate an atrocity against Israel. I hope not, but it is possible. I think Bickle could have chosen a better word than “required”. I think this leads to a harsh interpretation.
I believe Bickle is a false teacher, and I have many reasons to oppose him. But I’m not sure this quote is worth me piling on.
-r
Kevin,
I think IWant is pointing out the Shawn Bolz connection. Shawn is apparently a product of IHOP. I think that’s your connection.
-r
Kevin,
You will have to look really hard to see many people who post regularly on this blog who are in favor of Mike Bickle.
I also gathered that Bickle was referring to the Anti-Christ when I read the article beforehand.
The guy subscribes to Replacement theology and I think he’s absolutely dangerous. But it is true that any Jew or Gentile or more plainly, any person who does NOT accept Christ before their death, is not saved and is damned for eternity.
Kevin,
It looks to me that the site you referenced above Kingdom Finance Seminar is all about Shawn Boltz and his visions. You can read more about this if you select his name up above in the “tags” in red. It looks as though when you select Luke Bickle under “google” you get the Glad Heart Reality site. Both Bickles sons work there. Picturs of them are also posted. I wonder if Shawn and Luke might be of the same age and possiblly good friends since Shawn Boltz is a Bickle protege.
Iwanthetruth:
On the realestate site is an article on Glad Heart from Real Estate Execuitive Magazine. It quotes Mrs. Bickle as saying “Luke continues to work in real estate while preparing for a new career.” Makes me wonder is this new career in any way connected to Kingdom Finance?
Long ago I learned, follow the money.
K.
Rob,
With all due respect I disagree with your interpretation “I would interpret that to mean that most Jewish people who reject Jesus (like most Gentiles) are “unsaved”. I don’t see the anti-semitic slant to this.”
In context Jesus was being asked - OK so then let us meet your father, and His reply was you already know him.
There’s always danger in reading out of context. I will agree that many believe as you do, as for me I believe in The God Of Reconciliation who would not punish people because they didn’t get the gift of Christian faith.
In any event, Bickle chose his words in his statement, I didn’t. As you point out Gentiles who are unwilling to accept Christ will also perish but he chose to point to the Jews. That is why with the rest of the statement it is inflamatory and antisemitic.
Kevin,
Could very well be. Like I said they may be good friends, OR he has had a vision of some kind (pepperoni type) that is taking him into another area of finance or who knows what.
Well just have tokeep our eyes peeled to the IHOP world and see what happens.
Blessings
Kevin,
Quick question, do you reside in the USA?
Anybody read Rom 2:1-11 and beyond and tell me what this is about.
Thanks
Answer some of my own questions:
Mathew Henry Commentary
The scope of the first two chapters of this epistle may be gathered from ch. 3:9, “We have before proved both Jews and Gentiles that they are all under sin.’’ This we have proved upon the Gentiles (ch. 1), now in this chapter he proves it upon the Jews, as appears by v. 17, “thou art called a Jew.’’ I. He proves in general that Jews and Gentiles stand upon the same level before the justice of God, to v. 11. II. He shows more particularly what sins the Jews were guilty of, notwithstanding their profession and vain pretensions (v. 17 to the end).
The whole commentary is pretty interesting…..
http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=Rom&chapter=2&verse=6&Comm=Comm%2Fmhc%2FRom%2FRom002.html%231%26Matthew%26Henry&Select.x=24&Select.y=13
Kevin,
I value your opinion, but I think I’ll stay with the opinion of the Apostle Peter in Acts 4.
“This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Peter certainly seems to be interpreting salvation with a rather exclusionary slant — “no one else…no other name.” This doesn’t seem to leave much wiggle room.
-r
Look guys I’m not here to discuss my interpretation vs. yours. I do believe that IHOP and Bickle pose a danger for a variety of reasons. Revisionist bible teaching is never good.
Poor preacher whose wealthy, successful wife is the landlord of the church, not good.
Very limited financial transparancy, not good.
A series of corporations with common shareholders, curious at best.
His choice of words regarding Jews, not good.
Bringing people to live in a closed community, historically very bad.
I could continue but I believe you get my point.
My concern is primarily for my daughter and for the other sons and daughters whose lives are being destroyed. I have seen a bright beautiful young lady