Regarding a Second work of Grace
Pentecostalism as I’ve experienced it
I believe I’ve put my foot in it with my comment that Pentecostals “leave a sour taste in my mouth.” Now I do know some stand-up folks who happen to be Pentecostals. I have to say that at the beginning. My upbringing as I mentioned before was that of a quasi-Pentecostal/Charismatic bent, so I do know quite a few of these folks. I also have to say that the view that I am describing here is not espoused by all Pentecostals.
I have to say that before carl gets too offended. carl seems like a great guy and even though he called me a “bonehead,” I can take it on the chin, realize we are both brothers and return the compliment. But I’ll let him use his own words for that. There are elements what I’ll discuss that permeate the movement but this is my experience and I am relating it as such. If you want a really succinct and more objective history of the Pentecostal movement, I’d recommend Gary Gilley’s article on the topic here. I don’t really have time to explore all of the ins and outs and frankly, I’d just be doing the most boring part of research by regurgitating facts, names and dates. Not really what I like to do on a Wednesday evening. But as for me, I’m still buzzing from the high of seeing my meager hit counter surge a couple of days ago after being Blogspotted by the prince of Reformed blogging, Grace to You’s Phil Johnson. So I’m not planning on bringing myself down with boring names and dates. Thanks Phil.
Fine I’m saved, now what?
First off, these guys are Christians and I love them as such. (Even as I say “these guys,” I realize that not all Pentecostals will fit into this category.) I just have some disagreements. I think that’s safe ground for discussion. For me, I have to say that I was always bothered by the idea of the so-called “Baptism of the Holy Spirit” as espoused by my Pente-smatic pastor growing up. For those unfamiliar, Pentecostals were known as the “tongues speakers” for the longest time believing that the only evidence that one “had the Holy Spirit” was that they babbled about in “other tongues.” Although the more traditional Pentecostal would disagree, I think that some would say that displaying any of the various spiritual gifts would qualify someone as having received the Holy Spirit even if tongues in particular was not present. The bottom line is that as a distinctive they still believe that one has to “receive the Holy Spirit” as a Secondary Work of Grace, that is, as something that is subsequent to Salvation.
For the longest time I could not put my finger on why it bothered me so much. Even as early as my freshman year of high school I could remember thinking that I’d never be able to tell anyone about Jesus, let alone convince them that they had to speak in tongues to be a “real Christian.” I didn’t really see a distinction in the scriptures that would suggest that there were two camps. i.e. Christians who had the Holy Spirit and those who did not. In the time since then, I have remained unconvinced and here are some very simple and clear reasons why.
But what about Acts 2? Surely you’re not going to say that didn’t happen…
I’m not going to deal with some of the more common “proof-texts” of Pentecostalism because, quite simply, they just aren’t that convincing. But I will say this: When was the last time you were at a meeting, Pentecostal or otherwise, where there was a mighty rushing wind inside the building that came from heaven, tongues of fire resting on each person, people (many if not all)speaking actual languages that they had never learned and using them to preach the Gospel to foreigners, and where 3000 people were saved? I’m unconvinced and in my mind even if you go to a Pentecostal church, you’ve never been to a Pentecostal service in the biblical sense of the term. It was a unique event unduplicated since that time. So since it is not repeated anywhere in Scripture, we have no right to think that it is the normal way in which we are to expect the Holy Spirit, especially in literate, consumeristic, overchurched America. I just think that it’s pretty ridiculous to think that displays of power will have any effect if we spend all our time seeking them at the expense (and it always is at the expense) of our devotion to the faithful preaching of the Gospel.
Okay, I’m turning off the flame-thrower, but I’m pulling out the Sword
Now Pentecostals will say that one can be saved and go to Heavenwithout this so-called “Baptism of the Holy Spirit.” They simply viewthese individuals in not so many words, as second-class Christians. But in Rom. 8:9 Paul write to Christians and says:
9You, however, are not controlled by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. (At this point the Pentecostal sees a glimmer of hope and says, “You see? We have to ask the Spirit of God to come and live inside of us. But Paul continues…) And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. (My emphasis.)
So what we are left with is the fact that if we do not have the Spirit, we are not Christians at all! We do not belong to Christ. So this leads me to believe that all Christians have the Holy Spirit living inside them. But the Pentecostal is the one who said you could be a Christian without having the Holy Spirit. I mean, you can go to heaven without asking the Holy Spirit to come and fill you, right. Nope, sorry, just not there. The only conceivable way to get around this is to come up with a different definition of what it means to have the Holy Spirit. They would say, “Sure, you have the Holy Spirit in a basic sense, but you need to ask him to come into your life with Power.” Again I say that the so-called proof of this is dicey at best. Any time you have to redefine a biblical definition of what it means to have the Holy Spirit, you are redefining the wrong thing. We must at all costs resist the temptation to shape the Bible to our theology. That is putting the cart before the horse. It’s also what breeds heresy.
So I get all my hell vaccinations at once? (The bolded headings do not represent the views of the Management.)
The above passage, however, is inconclusive in arguing how theHoly Spirit comes to live inside of us. At this point, anyone from a Reformed background will have to bear with me because this is pretty basic stuff. Later in Rom. 10:9, Paul explains what it takes to be saved. This is the absolute shortest definition of Salvation I think, on record. No four spiritual laws, no clever illustration with a big gap from man to God and the Cross acting as the bridge, no tracts, no cultural relevancy, no personal jet bought with donated funds from people dying of cancer. Quite simply:
9That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,”: and believe in you heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
So right now we have two very important pieces of information. First, that anyone who considers themself to be a Christian must have the Holy Spirit. Second that to be a Christian you must confess that Jesus is Lord. So what do we do? Does this mean that as soon as we accept Jesus we are to be “Baptized in the Holy Spirit” because Paul just said that we need both to be a Christian? Do we will up enough courage to say the words: JESUS IS LORD? How do we even get to that point?
The Bible is absolutely clear. 1 Cor. 12:3 is explicit on the subject and you don’t even have to be a Calvinist to see it, although it would help.
3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say. “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
So there we have it. You can’t even become a Christian without the Holy Spirit! Here is where I get offended. This is where the “sour taste” comes from. There are no second-class Christians. If you have submitted to God’s will and become a Christian, you have done so only by means of the Holy Spirit under no strength of your own will Instead of looking at “getting the Holy Spirit” as being this great secondary thing that the Pentecostals “rediscovered,” it is in truth, the only connection with God that an unbeliever has until he becomes born again. John Piper even goes so far as to say that the only prayer an unbeliever can pray is to cry out to the Holy Spirit begging him not to leave. Just hearing him preach it is enough to make you cry. Incidentally, Pentecostalism has not been around that long in comparison to other understanding of the Bible. I don’t say this to give credit to Church Tradition over the Bible, Lord knows we’ve had some bad traditions. I say this in order to bring up a question. If the Pentecostal view is as elementary to church life as they claim it to be, and if we cannot be Christians without the Holy Spirit, then how did the Church get along without the Holy Spirit for almost 2000 years? It just doesn’t add up. And I think I can comment on why I think that is.
So why is it then, tough guy?
Pentecostalism thrives on the idea that signs and wonders and all manner of works of the Holy Spirit are for today. Now I don’t have a problem with that. But I will say again and again until it’s bleeding out my ears that if you are seeking after signs as proof of anything (i.e. whether or not Jesus is who he said he was, whether or not someone has the Holy Spirit, etc…) you are in error. Signs never saved anyone. Sure they were done for people and some came to believe afterwards, but they are never evangelistic in the Bible. For every man by the pool of Bethsaida, there are nine lepers who never even looked back to say thank you. Signs mean nothing compared to the preaching of the Word, for it is the power of God unto Salvation. The Bible tells us over and over that there will be false signs and wonders so powerful that they would even deceive the elect. That’s you Christian! But you know what Satan cannot duplicate, what he can’t fabricate? Truth. He can’t save anyone, nor would he want to, but that’s not my point. The Devil cannot turn the heart of a child back to its Father. Only the Word of God can do that. You want to see a manifestation of the power of God? Preach the Word and watch as someone comes to Jesus.
-Jonah
Technorati Tags: pentecostal, holy spirit
7 Comments
Comments RSS TrackBack Identifier URI
Leave a comment
Jonah,
Perhaps being FULL of the Holy Spirit is really what Penta-matics mean. I have heard the double baptism theory. There is at least one scripture- I will try to find it - where there were some who were believers then the apostles asked if they had received the Spirit, they had not, they laid hands on them and then they did manifest the HS.
However- the biggest sign and wonder anyone could show me is the incredible transformation in someone who has received Christ.
For example John Newton, former “wretch” who was a foul slave-trader so disgusting that his shipmates wanted to throw him overboard- reads the Bible, REPENTS (something lost in today’s Prosperous Life Gospel), and then pens the hymn Amazing Grace and lives a life utterly unlike what he did prior.
I love to listen to testimonies of peoples hearts transformed by God and the New Creations they become. (I hate using this Christian lingo but I assume all the readers of your blog are likely churched if not Christian.)
Its really cool to listen to the radio program UNSHACKLED (in spite of the chessy organ music) and hear testimonies given about God’s work in their lives. I think testimonies are something that has fallen out of favor in today’s church and they are truly a mark of God’s continuing power today.
Here are 2 scriptures supporting 2 events - and another passage showing one event where conversion and infilling were simultaneous.
Acts 8:14-17 (Amplified Bible)
14 Now when the apostles (special messengers) at Jerusalem heard that [the country of] Samaria had accepted and welcomed the Word of God, they sent Peter and John to them,
15 And they came down and prayed for them that the Samaritans might receive the Holy Spirit;
16 For He had not yet fallen upon any of them, but they had only been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then [the apostles] laid their hands on them one by one, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 19
1WHILE APOLLOS was in Corinth, Paul went through the upper inland districts and came down to Ephesus. There he found some disciples.
2And he asked them, Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed [on Jesus as the Christ]? And they said, No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.
3And he asked, Into what [baptism] then were you baptized? They said, Into John’s baptism.
4And Paul said, John baptized with the baptism of repentance, continually telling the people that they should believe in the One Who was to come after him, that is, in Jesus [having a conviction full of joyful trust that He is Christ, the Messiah, and being obedient to Him].
5On hearing this they were baptized [again, this time] in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6And as Paul laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spoke in [foreign, unknown] tongues (languages) and prophesied.
7There were about twelve of them in all.
8And he went into the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, persuading and arguing and pleading about the kingdom of God.
Acts 10 (Amplified Bible)
1NOW [living] at Caesarea there was a man whose name was Cornelius, a centurion (captain) of what was known as the Italian Regiment,
2A devout man who venerated God and treated Him with reverential obedience, as did all his household; and he gave much alms to the people and prayed continually to God.
3About the ninth hour (about 3:00 p.m.) of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God entering and saying to him, Cornelius!
4And he, gazing intently at him, became frightened and said, What is it, Lord? And the angel said to him, Your prayers and your [generous] gifts to the poor have come up [as a sacrifice] to God and have been remembered by Him.
5And now send men to Joppa and have them call for and invite here a certain Simon whose surname is Peter;
6He is lodging with Simon a tanner, whose house is by the seaside.
7When the angel who spoke to him had left, Cornelius called two of his servants and a God-fearing soldier from among his own personal attendants.
8And having rehearsed everything to them, he sent them to Joppa.
9The next day as they were still on their way and were approaching the town, Peter went up to the roof of the house to pray, about the sixth hour (noon).
10But he became very hungry, and wanted something to eat; and while the meal was being prepared a trance came over him,
11And he saw the sky opened and something like a great sheet lowered by the four corners, descending to the earth.
12It contained all kinds of quadrupeds and wild beasts and creeping things of the earth and birds of the air.
13And there came a voice to him, saying, Rise up, Peter, kill and eat.
14But Peter said, No, by no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common and unhallowed or [ceremonially] unclean.
15And the voice came to him again a second time, What God has cleansed and pronounced clean, do not you defile and profane by regarding and calling common and unhallowed or unclean.
16This occurred three times; then immediately the sheet was taken up to heaven.
17Now Peter was still inwardly perplexed and doubted as to what the vision which he had seen could mean, when [just then] behold the messengers that were sent by Cornelius, who had made inquiry for Simon’s house, stopped and stood before the gate.
18And they called out to inquire whether Simon who was surnamed Peter was staying there.
19And while Peter was [a]earnestly revolving the vision in his mind and meditating on it, the [Holy] Spirit said to him, Behold, three men are looking for you!
20Get up and go below and accompany them without any doubt [about its legality] or any discrimination or hesitation, for I have sent them.
21Then Peter went down to the men and said, I am the man you seek; what is the purpose of your coming?
22And they said, Cornelius, a centurion (captain) who is just and upright and in right standing with God, being God-fearing and obedient and well spoken of by the whole Jewish nation, has been instructed by a holy angel to send for you to come to his house; and he [b]has received in answer [to prayer] a warning to listen to and act upon what you have to say.
23So Peter invited them in to be his guests [for the night]. The next day he arose and went away with them, and some of the brethren from Joppa accompanied him.
24And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was waiting for and expecting them, and he had invited together his relatives and his intimate friends.
25As Peter arrived, Cornelius met him, and falling down at his feet he made obeisance and paid worshipful reverence to him.
26But Peter raised him up, saying, Get up; I myself am also a man.
27And as [Peter] spoke with him, he entered the house and found a large group of persons assembled;
28And he said to them, You yourselves are aware how it is not lawful or permissible for a Jew to keep company with or to visit or [even] to come near or to speak first to anyone of another nationality, but God has shown and taught me by words that I should not call any human being common or unhallowed or [ceremonially] unclean.
29Therefore when I was sent for, I came without hesitation or objection or misgivings. So now I ask for what reason you sent for me.
30And Cornelius said, This is now the fourth day since about this time I was observing the ninth hour (three o’clock in the afternoon) of prayer in my lodging place; [suddenly] a man stood before me in dazzling apparel,
31And he said, Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and harkened to, and your donations to the poor have been known and [c]preserved before God [so that He heeds and is about to help you].
32Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is surnamed Peter; he is staying in the house of Simon the tanner by the seaside.
33So at once I sent for you, and you [being a Jew] have done a ind and [d]courteous and handsome thing in coming. Now then, we are all present in the sight of God to listen to all that you have been instructed by the Lord to say.
34And Peter opened his mouth and said: Most certainly and thoroughly I now perceive and understand that God shows no partiality and is no respecter of persons,
35But in every nation he who venerates and has a reverential fear for God, treating Him with worshipful obedience and living uprightly, is acceptable to Him and [e]sure of being received and welcomed [by Him].
36You know the contents of the message which He sent to Israel, announcing the good news (Gospel) of peace by Jesus Christ, Who is Lord of all–
37The [same] message which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee after the baptism preached by John–
38How God anointed and consecrated Jesus of Nazareth with the [Holy] Spirit and with strength and ability and power; how He went about doing good and, [f]in particular, curing all who were harassed and oppressed by [the power of] the devil, for God was with Him.
39And we are [eye and ear] witnesses of everything that He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. And [yet] they put Him out of the way (murdered Him) by hanging Him on a tree;
40But God raised Him to life on the third day and caused Him to be manifest (to be plainly seen),
41Not by all the people but to us who were chosen (designated) beforehand by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.
42And He charged us to preach to the people and to bear solemn testimony that He is the God-appointed and God-ordained Judge of the living and the dead.
43To Him all the prophets testify (bear witness) that everyone who believes in Him [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him, giving himself up to Him] receives forgiveness of sins through His name.
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all who were listening to the message.
45And the believers from among the circumcised [the Jews] who came with Peter were surprised and amazed, because the free gift of the Holy Spirit had been bestowed and poured out largely even on the Gentiles.
46For they heard them talking in [unknown] tongues (languages) and extolling and magnifying God. Then Peter asked,
47Can anyone forbid or refuse water for baptizing these people, seeing that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?
48And he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (the Messiah). Then they begged him to stay on there for some days.
Joanh,
Perhaps the reason tongues is emphasized as an initial gift is that it can be used for self-edification ie Paul who prayed in tongues [more than anyone] paraphrase.
The Gifts of the HS seem to be for power in preaching the Word and spreading the Gospel not for glamorous Signs and Wonders.
I too have walked within the charismatic / pentecostal for 31 years and have watched in detail many manifestations of the Holy Spirit and manifestations of the “not” so Holy Spirit, I’ll explain….One observation is that the manifestations of the “Holy Spirit”(quotes are intentional) are NOT necessarily a sign of ones salvation. One only has to look around, what appears to be manifestation are seen in other religions, sects, cults and so on. I’ve seen(and one doesn’t have to go far to see this) so called christian groups having ALL the signs of the Holy Spirit but yet, their doctrines are nothing but heresy! I believe that’s why Paul made the distinction he did in the verse of 1 Cor.12:3 you included. There are many pentecostal churches that don’t accept the doctrine of the Trinity, a doctrine that deserves scrutiny, but they too manifest all the outward signs.
So we need look at fruits more than we look at manifestations and even the fruits can be counterfeited! Many cults display the fruits spoken of biblically and are totally wrong spiritually! So this also leaves us all in a quandary! What are we to do? DOCTRINE !!! THAT’S where the boundaries must lay! We can’t always trust fruits nor can we trust all manifestations.
My belief is that too many of the charismatic / Pentecostal thought use the Book Of Acts as church doctrine rather than the epistles. Standing on the Book Of Acts and ignoring what the apostles went on to write. And early on I TOO was guilty of this very same thing. Nowadays doctrine is being replaced with experiences and that can lead us into dangerous places. Moses threw his staff to the ground and it turned into a snake. The pharaoh’s wizards were able to duplicate the same manifestation to a point.
Look at some of the spiritual giants of the past those in the line of Spurgeon for example. They all didn’t manifest the signs that many strive for nowadays but were they any less christian? How do we know that they were “true” christians? We know they were becuase of the doctrine they espoused upon. They were VERY clear on what salvation REALLY is and how it is manifested.
Scotty is right about counterfeits. For example even the antichrist is going to do signs and wonders. The whole end times thing is too much to bring up here but as clasically understood there is an individual figure does not seem to have emerged yet, unless you are a praetorist or a latter rainer. (I think the endtimes are WAY overemphasized in the Christian World today along with signs and wonders because both are dramatic, glamourous and sexy.)
According to one interpretation, the antichrist suffers a grievous wound to the head and even manages to counterfeit a resurrection! Is this literal or figurative? I don’t know.
Revelation 13 Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)
1And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and I saw out of the sea a beast coming up, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon its horns ten diadems, and upon its heads a name of evil speaking,
2and the beast that I saw was like to a leopard, and its feet as of a bear, and its mouth as the mouth of a lion, and the dragon did give to it his power, and his throne, and great authority.
3And I saw one of its heads as slain to death, and its deadly stroke was healed, and all the earth did wonder after the beast,
4and they did bow before the dragon who did give authority to the beast, and they did bow before the beast, saying, `Who [is] like to the beast? who is able to war with it?’
5And there was given to it a mouth speaking great things, and evil-speakings, and there was given to it authority to make war forty-two months,
6and it did open its mouth for evil-speaking toward God, to speak evil of His name, and of His tabernacle, and of those who in the heaven tabernacle,
7and there was given to it to make war with the saints, and to overcome them, and there was given to it authority over every tribe, and tongue, and nation.
8And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
The Word and Doctrine are CRITICAL to avoid falling into error in a world of false prophets who can do signs and wonders and even ape a counterfeit “resurrection”. What the Word-Faith teachers preach is also heresy when you compare their doctrines to what is orthodox as well as the Prophetic Movement crowd. Studying the Word seriously is hard work so maybe sloth is one reason so much error is going around…
Scotty is also right in that you need to be wellread in the Word instead of reciting your favorite passages over and over. You really need to Study to Show Yourself
Approved HOWEVER even with the Word/Doctrine you can make errors: You can make the error of taking things out of context, misinterpreting passages, making private interpretation of passages, (ie taking OT promise to Israel and making them personal), emphasizing the Love of God over His Holiness….many many errors.
I have to admit - I find it exasperating that well-meaning Christian scholars can read the same passage of Scripture and come to COMPLETELY VASTLY DIFFERENT interpretations of the same passage! The both come armed with their scriptures and excellent arguments on both sides - then what do you do?
“(I think the endtimes are WAY overemphasized in the Christian World today along with signs and wonders because both are dramatic, glamourous and sexy.) ”
You’ll get a resounding AMEN from me!! If we’re doing what we’re called to do, we need not worry about such things, it’ll take care of itself.
“I have to admit - I find it exasperating that well-meaning Christian scholars can read the same passage of Scripture and come to COMPLETELY VASTLY DIFFERENT interpretations of the same passage! The both come armed with their scriptures and excellent arguments on both sides - then what do you do?”
This is how I handle it, it’s just personal and I don’t expect all to agree we me. First off being a fundamentalist (the media has really twisted what it means to be a fundamentalist), it means that some things are NON negotiable! And those five fundamentals of the faith are:
1)The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2)The Virgin Birth.
3)The Blood Atonement.
4)The Bodily Resurrection.
5)The inerrancy of the scriptures.
Reading the Bible I can’t see how anyone can NOT come up with these five fundamentals. Most times it’s through interpretation that these fundamentals become twisted. Secondly MOST scripture requires NO interpretation, ya read it like it’s written. It’s very obvious what needs interpretation and what doesn’t.
Now with those five fundamentals in place there IS room for debate. Bringing this in line of the subject of the Gifts Of The Holy Spirit, there are compelling arguments on BOTH sides. And also a LOT of lame arguments……BUT personally I don’t think any of it should be taken to the point that it causes a rift within the Body Of Christ, the church. I believe that’s what Paul meant when he said he would show us a better thing, LOVE. If loves prevails in the argument then both sides can coexist. Same is true of other issues, should we sprinkle, should we dunk, etc. etc. We’re also taught not to get into vain arguments…..and I admit I’m guilty. Vanity can play heavy into this as we are mere humans and we enjoy being right while we point out another’s error. And pride enters into to the mix also, of which I too am guilty at times. These are the two most difficult emotions for me to keep in check at times.
Personally, much of the arguments on both sides of this issue are a waste of time, time that could be spent doing more important things. We’ll all have a clearer view soon enough. Time IS short.
Scotty,
I SO totally agree with you! It was LOVE that led me to Christ - not any drama. I still think with great fondness on the person that showed me that love when no one else would.
FUNDAMENTALISM has such a bad rap but if you have no foundation then you are lost in confusion. All knowledge and learning builds on FUNDAMENTALS spiritual or otherwise ie 1+1=2 is fundamental to mathematics.
What about JAMES who speaks of True Religion being to the Widows and Orphans? What about where Jesus speaks to the sheep and goats about the love they showed? It obviously is important to him to clothe the naked, visit prisons, feed the hungry.
One thing for certain: whether dealing with a modernist or postmodernist or intellectual or hedonist - LOVE conquers all in terms of bringing the lost to the Lord so we need to get busy loving and showing mercy not calling fire from heaven.