IHOP and Cultural Influences
I believe there are some cultural influences that are influencing the “Prayer Movement” and they need to be addressed because they give us insight into how a group of people can be so careless and unabashed about their application of Scripture.
Dominion Theology finds Cultural Basis
So as I’ve said many times before, I have spent the majority of my life under teachings rooted in the IHOP philosophy as well as the Vineyard Movement. By visiting the IHOP forums, you cannot escape the emphasis on the End Times in their threads. The Dominion Theology that they subscribe to permeates their teaching on all levels. Well the problem is that we are seeing a movement (IHOP) specifically targeting the current generation and their leaders across the board from Mike Bickle to Rick Joyner to Allen Hood, telling them that they ARE the end times generation that WILL usher in the Second Coming of Jesus. Granted, there are some signs that we are indeed in the “End Times, ” I don’t think anyone would deny that, but the Bible says that “no one knows the day or the hour.” Also keep in mind that the end has been coming ever since Jesus ascended in Acts 1. To slap current events meanings to biblical prophecies most of the time is really just like playing “Plausibility Whack-A-Mole” with the evening news. If you want to do that, Pat Robertson has an entire network devoted to this and you’re more than welcome to tune in. (This last sentence is to be read sarcastically, but I can’t find a font for that.)
Post Modernism
The problem is that Dominion Theology fits right in with two very influential and powerful forces in our current culture that deserve our attention. The timing is quite remarkable. The first culprit is Post-Modernism. In a Post-Modern culture everything is okay and Truth is relative. There are no absolutes in our culture today. One only has to attend a high-school-level sociology class or look at the recent success of the ridiculously unstable Da Vinci Code to see this at work in our generation. The worst label one can receive from another is that of being “intolerant.” Ironically, tolerance in its current definition and practice is intolerant of those of us who subscribe to the absolute principles found in the Bible. We are immediately ostricized and labelled as hateful. Nontheless, the concept of tolerance is very noticable in IHOP, in particular in how Mike Bickle is so open and accepting of “different streams” as he calls them. (examples: Toronto, Brownsville, Benny Hinn, etc…) Ironically, the people who defend these heretical ministries rarely do it with reaction to the biblical concerns presented by those of us who do it, but from a posture of “tolerance.”
Quick Example
A common justification for putting discernment behind and openly accepting something that may seem a little off is “going for it.” This is a phrase commonly used at IHOP and we must examine it when it is used because very often, it is used to accept unorthodox behavior as okay and encourages us “not to worry about it.”
As a hallmark of any “new revelation” that comes down the pike, the main leader usually has some sort of experience where God gives himspecial instructions. Mike Bickle is really no different in this respect. On disc 7 of The Prophetic History, Bickle describes a visitation to the throne-room of God as he is told that God will be restoring the apostles to the church. Let me preface this by saying that before getting to this point in his message, Bickle described the experience as being on par with the Apostle Paul’s experience in the Third Heaven in 2 Cor. 12 as well as John’s visions. I don’t want to get into these verses at this time because what I want to point out is the authority that Bickle compares his experience with. I’m not saying that he’s claiming the power of the apostle, Bickle does that himself later. What I am pointing out is that he is leading us to believe this experience has the same clarity with which the apostles’ experiences came. He describes the trance (his word, not mine) in detail, the content of which is quite interesting, but again, for a different time. The purpose of the description is the important thing in this case:
The reason I’m going to describe it to you, I’m not going to describe it for curiosity’s sake because I’ve very rarely told this in how many years since ‘84, uh, 18 years… so few times. People always ask me “Tell that story” and I go, “Nah,” I don’t want to get it on tape because I don’t want to exalt mystical experiences, but the Lord is challenging me. He says, “The reason you struggle with this so much is because you had no grid for this and I’m gonna do this with so many people. Give them a grid so that they don’t have to do that kind of real cool, dignified unbelief thing for five years. They can just enter in and begin to understand and they don’t have to stay in kindergarten for the next thirty years in the Spirit.” So we need to teach, we need to instruct. It needs to be not normal to where it’s trite and overfamiliar, but it needs to be not so bizarre that nobody can believe it or do it. Why should you waste three years, “I think I did, but I might not have but I could have,” and “Oh aren’t you sweet aren’t you humble?” Oh shut up! Did you or didn’t you!? Let’s get on with it… That’s why I’m going to give you some details, so we can just get rid of this distracting other thing and just get it out of its way. Nothing is more important than Scripture, nothing is more important than the exalting of Jesus and nothing is more important than the bringing in of the harvest. It’s all about those kind of things.
(Mike Bickle, The Prophetic History, Disc 7, 2002. All grammatical errors and emphasis are from the original.)
I apologize for the long quote, but I don’t want to be accused of taking it out of context. I think if I quoted more of this teaching, it would only strengthen my position, but I had to limit it at some point for the sake of space. Bickle is very explicit about his purpose in telling us his experience. We are to a) accept the experience as being from God (based on the fact that it happened to Bickle), b) believe the contents (based on the clarity with which the vision came), c) look forward to it becoming more common, and most importantly, d) not bother questioning it (because God told Bickle to “give them a grid”). Testing whether or not such a strange experiences are from God, what we call “discernment,” is seen by Bickle as this “other thing” to get out of the way. The disturbing thing is that he throws in, as an afterthought, that “nothing is more important than Scripture etc…” but if this were true, we would realize that, in the words of Jesus, “No one has ever gone into heaven except the on who came from heaven- the son of Man.” (Jn. 3:13) So even though he is reluctant to tell the story, we see that we are to be open and accepting of it as being from God and do away with discernment. We can see here the influence of the PoMo culture coupled with instruction to cast aside discernment.
The Entitlement Generation
The other force that makes Dominion Theology really take root in today’s twenty-somethings is the idea of The Entitlement Generation. This generation, more than any other in history, expects things to be handed to them. We get baseball trophies even when they lose. We “graduate” from kindergarten. We are told thatthey are “gifted” at everything we attempt. We used to be called Generation X. That was always really cool to me growing up because I liked X-Men and thought that we were all going to have mutant powers and overthrow the corrupt system and reign victoriously. Everyone wants to be able to fly like Cannonball or walk thru walls like Kitty Pride or teleport like Nightcrawler, right? Anyway, I digress. No wait, that was my point. Allen Hood describes in “The Playfulness of God,” how we are going to be able to fly, walk thru walls, raise the dead, teleport from one place to another at will. Dominion Theology as a rule carries with it an air of supremacy as the “power” is going to be “restored” to the church.
The Equation
You put that together with a generation that expects everything to be handed to them and what do you get? You get a movement of young people who have been told by culture that everything is okay. They’ve been told by church leadership that it is up to them to “usher in” the Second Coming of Jesus. They’ve been encouraged to do away with discernment concerning mystical experiences. They’ve been told that they are “forerunners” of Christ in the same way that John the Baptist was. They’ve been told that the orthodox views of Christianity are weak and it’s up to them to restore the “true” message of the Gospel, using their new “powers from God” to start a revival that will win souls for the Kingdom. When you put all that expectancy on a group of people, you know what you get? You get pride since you have the “raw Gospel” and everybody else isn’t as sincere as you. You get laziness, because the winning of souls will come when the annointing comes, so all you have to do is wait for that instead of actually witnessing. You get a group with dangerously little discernment and an equally dangerous reliance on a leadership construct centered on the questionable teachings of one man. Or worse, you get disillusionment because in reality, you’ve tried to sustain your spiritual existence by jumping for one experience to the next in hopes that something will stick.
Without a foundation in the Word, there is no experience that will satisfy. There is no power or manifestation that has the ability to divide between joints and marrow like the Word of God. It is our daily bread and it is not about waiting for the “annointing” to come so you can feel good or for you to use to show people that God is real. God has already sent his Holy Spirit and it is there for all who believe in Jesus.
-Jonah
Technorati Tags: mike bickle, ihop, joel’s army, entitlement generation, post-modernism, fore-runner school of ministry
216 Comments
Hello Jonah,
I stumbled on to this website while (once again) trying to research this bizarre movement (IHOP, Joel’s Army, etc.). 2-3 years ago, I met a young man at work who was REALLY into Rick Joyner, Benny Hinn, IHOP, Joel’s Army, Todd Bentley (yikes!)… We talked a lot about this stuff and had a very good relationship despite our differences on these matters. However, it wasn’t until we parted that I really started to research these men and their ministries. I’ve become even more interested recently, because members of my extended family have become at least peripherally involved with IHOP/Mike Bickle through an association with YWAM.
Anyways, these guys scare me. My friend’s “favorite apostle” was Paul Cain. If my internet sources can be trusted, this man claims to have walked through walls! My question for you is this: who do you know of in the “mainstream” of Christianity that has taken a serious look at this movement and criticized it? Not to belitte you or your blog, but the only contr-information I can find is on small sites like this and others (Apologetics Index, e.g.). This movement is huge, and I can’t believe more mainline pastors/leaders aren’t aware of it. Moreover, I have even encountered some men I respect linking to fotb.com (Sam Storms, enjoyinggodministries.com).
I have tried not to be reactionary and thoughtless in my concerns/criticisms of this movement, but I really do believe it is borderline cult (at least extreme segments - like Todd Bentley), and am frustrated that more well-known folks have not done as you have.
God Bless,
Jim B.
Hey Jim,
There are several resources that you could look into.
http://www.discernment-ministries.com (new article on Joel’s Army.)
http://www.letusreason.org (variety)
http://www.apologeticsindex.org (read the sub-articles too)
Also I’m currently reading “The Gift of Prophecy” by Wayne Grudem, thanks to Keith Gibson. He’s actually a lot of the source material that IHOP (ab)uses. It gives you a really good perspective of the charismatic position and then you can contrast it with what IHOP actually teaches.
Bill Randles wrote several books on the subject of the modern prophets specifically. “Mending the Nets” and “Weighed and Found Wanting” and “Beware the New Prophets” are the titles. I haven’t read the third, but the others are pretty interesting.
Also, to get their side of it, I’d recommend “Our Prophetic History” and “Growing in the Prophetic” by Bickle which I’ll be contrasting with Grudem in future posts here.
Big organizations like IHOP and the others make a lot of money, so it’s easier to find their stuff out there than it is books on true discernment. They just aren’t big sellers for some reason. (too convicting?)
I’ve also got some pdf’s so if you want ‘em, email me and I’ll see what I can do. thesignofjonah@gmail.com.
-Jonah
[...] This is a post from a young guy who says that post modernism coupled with an entitlement mentality has corrupted the move of the Holy Ghost. He details these things then follows up with: [...]
Jim,
If you are still looking for information, our website just posted the audio file of a presentation I gave recently concerning IHOP. You can also feel free to contact me directly at kgrev15@msn.com for additional information.
By the way, Paul Cain has not claimed to have been able to walk through walls. He did say, however, that Joel’s Army would be able to do so once they were fully glorified.
Keith Gibson
I forgot to give the website address. It is http://www.arcapologetics.org.
Keith
I was told by a man who researched IHOP that a quote endorsing IHOP by Bill Bright was on IHOP’s website. However, after calling Campus Crusade he was told that their legal department was currently trying to get the quote off of IHOP’s site.
Also, it doesn’t seem that any of their different city sites mention any of the others. . .
Disclaimer from Jonah: This post contains mild profanity. While I personally don’t mind people expressing how they feel, I know that some readers will want a warning before continuing. -J
A report from the field about what happened to me last night. I can’t believe it. I went to the IHOP conference in town to hear this Mike Bickle guy speak, you know, hear what he had to say from his own mouth. I am visiting a friend and coming from out of town and had no idea about the conference this week. Things started out with some spirited praise and worship. Singing, dancing, people praying over each other, and all that. Sometimes I enjoy that ecstatic overflow-type worship, sometimes a more quiet, intimate, contemplative mode. Well, I had a small vial of fragrant spikenard anointing oil with me (sometimes I wear it just because it smells nice) and felt led by the Spirit at a certain point to begin praying with the people nearby and pulled out my vial of oil and began anointing them. I was wearing a shirt that says Soy borracho y me importa madre which is Spanish slang for something like, I’m drunk and I don’t give a damn. Because, you know, I AM drunk (in the Spirit) and I DON’T give a damn (about what others may think of that statement, nor how they will judge me on the basis of that). Sometimes I dress certain ways in churches just to see what the people there are made of, to challenge their idolatries. To shake up their churchy sensibilities. Also I was wearing a loop of thick Hare Krsna tulasi prayer beads. Jeans and sandals too. Nothing too outrageous.
What happened next was a real milestone in my walk. I have never come out of a church environment feeling more judged and abused than I did tonight. Before I knew it, I was surrounded by security guards and being escorted outside. I honestly had no idea what I’d done wrong and asked the guards what the problem was. Well, they interrogated me right there in the parking lot: who are you, what is your name, where did you get the oil, show me some ID, what are you doing here, what does your shirt say. I was polite and mature about the situation and just plain had no idea what I’d done wrong. They said they saw me praying with and anointing some people and that as I was not on an authorized IHOP prayer team I had no business praying over people in their church. They gave me the third degree over this deal and when I asked them why they were so accusatory, dealing with me like I was a criminal, and let them know in a polite fashion (mind you, I never raised my voice, never cursed, or anything like that, I simply asked them what I had done wrong and exactly what they were accusing me of) they got quite agitated and told me to leave or they were going to call the police and have me put under arrest. I was like Arrest me for what? Praying with people? See, he said that in IHOP the only people authorized to pray for others are the official IHOP prayer warriors and they are identified by a very visible ID badge that they wear. Huh?? That’s like saying that you’re only a part of the body of Christ if you’re wearing your ID badge, and everybody else is suspect. They treated me like a tresspasser and a criminal because I was anointing people with oil and praying with them as I was led by the Spirit. What kind of a church is that?? So no, never will I set foot on IHOP property again and will shake the dust of that end-time Uber-cult off my feet. They really seem to believe that they are God’s specially anointed end-time Joel’s Army . THEY ACTUALLY ASKED ME TO LEAVE AND THREATENED TO HAVE ME ARRESTED. I LEFT WONDERING WHAT THE HELL I DID WRONG. PARDON MY LANGUAGE. THAT WAS THE MOST OVERTLY ABUSIVE SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE OF MY LIFE. WHAT KIND OF CHURCH IS IT WHERE YOU CAN’T PRAY WITH PEOPLE UNLESS YOU ARE WEARING AN AUTHORIZATION BADGE?? WHAT EXACTLY DID THEY THINK I WAS TRYING TO DO? HOW PARANOID ARE THESE PEOPLE?? That’s enough to make a weaker believer swear off church forever. How insulting. How presumptuous those people were. Talk about a spirit of elitism.
Bickle is teaching his people that God is raising up Joel’s Army through His training program called IHOP and that one day they will literally take over the world for Jesus, because they (IHOP and it’s graduates) are the End-Time Forerunners that will usher in Our Lord’s Second Coming. I went to an IHOP conference last night and heard it from his own mouth. It’s also in a lot of recordings of his teaching. This is the most spiritually sick thing I have ever seen and heard to sit through. He teaches IHOP that THEY are God’s Army (Joel’s Army), and that he (Bickle) is the General. I am spooked beyond words. This is not something I would recommend to anybody under ANY circumstances. Talk about a spirit of elitism. Sheesh. And then when I was praying over people during Praise and Worship I was told to leave the property or they’s have me arrested. Is this a club, or a church?
The way the ministry was represented in that circumstance absolutely and 100% validated for me that which I have heard from others concerning IHOP in the past: namely, that IHOP is an intensely controlling and cultish church that is drunk on a spirit of spiritual superiority, like they think they’re God’s elite . The way they handled me tonight, the way they represented the ministry to a visitor, completely lived up to the rumors I’d heard. I will never come back on IHOP ground again, and will never under any circumstances recommend IHOP to anyone I know. In fact, I’ll tell them IHOP REALLY IS a cult. At least using the abusive way I was treated as an example. I’d actually like to hear from Mike Bickle himself on this.
Praise Him In a spirit of love I exhort you, IHOPpers, repent of your spiritual country-club elitist mentality. It’s sad that this is my one and only experience with IHOP, and I came away feeling like a dog who’s been hit over the head for misbehaving. Just because I was praying over and anointing people with my spikenard oil? I may not be on staff at IHOP nor a graduate of FSM, but I am a servant of the Most High God too and will NEVER EVER go back again.
To all of you “judge not” type folks who have a problem with my warning people about groups like this I say: if I knew there were some land mines in a path that you were walking down, and one wrong step could result in your being hurt or killed, it would be my responsibility to warn you, “Hey, there’s a mine there!” or else the blood (so to speak) would be on my hands if you got hurt because I didn’t warn you. You can listen, or not. Similarly, out there in the churchy world there are a loy of spiritually disastrous land-mines of churches that you may get seriously wounded in if somebody doesn’t warn you. I am just saying, don’t step there! Danger! In Love,
Zeuszor, the intrepid traveler
Frankly, I am wondering what sort of spirit would prompt someone to (in perceived effect) assault strangers with an unidentified substance out of a vial. In this day of terrorist activity in any area where a large number of people gather, the IHOP crew’s reaction doesn’t seem ‘paranoid’ to me. I would CERTAINLY not welcome such an uninvited ‘anointing’ from a total stranger in a service at my own church, which is a fairly conservative congregation in a main-stream denomination. The last time I checked the law code, assault IS criminal behavior.
It seems possible that ‘the intrepid traveler’s’ real agenda in attending this event was not to worship or praise, but to (as he admits) offend them, or as he says, to “challenge their idolatries” (I don’t really understand exactly what is meant by that phrase–”traveler’s” self-idolatry is evident, and will not pose a real challenge to someone else’s beliefs..it is merely offensive). This type of behavior and attitude has no place in any worship service that I have ever heard of, even IHOP.
Our church sincerely welcomes guests, if they enter the sanctuary with the intention of worshipping the Lord in the “spirit of holiness” .Yes, we have many worshippers come to services dressed in jeans and casual shirts; but the clothing is clean, does not draw attention to the person, and is probably the best that many folks have in a limited wardrobe. Remember that God looks upon one’s heart, and if the clothes and actions of the individual betray a self-serving, attention-seeking attitude, then that person is not there to worship anybody but himself.
If one sets his mind to be offensive, then why should HE be offended when offense is taken?
Lynda, I agree. While I’ve never heard of anyone being escorted out by security except when I was at Brownsville, most charismatic churches have designated prayer teams for ministry. I’m a big enough Rage Against the Machine fan to admire an attempt to challenge people’s perceptions of what church should be. But, Brian, it seems that you were trying to pick a fight. Sorry that it happened, but you had to know that it probably would. Personally, I think that as an organization, IHOP runs a pretty tight ship. My problem is with their theology and I think you and I, Brian, would have the same issues with one another.
Hello. I felt like researching what others think what i’m involved in. And i usually see either love, or hate. I’ve been involved with IHOP for some time now, and I remember myself calling the place a cult/extremist radical movement filled with lazy, shelter-seeking, right-wingers.
I just want to clear up things that are inaccurate.
1. When Mike makes points saying “We will usher in” he’s speaking for the End-Time body of Christ, not IHOP specifically.
2. Concerning the guy who was kicked out of the conference. While annointing oil may seem like something you consider tradition, some may consider it demonic. You have to meet with a compromise when you pray for people. Most people probably would not want someone putting oil on them anyways. And some who are ignorant of what your “annointing oil” does, will consider it demonic, or just pointless. You don’t need oil, to be annointed.
The average religious person tries to make noble their religious activites by such traditions.
4. End Time theology is merely a tool to make sure we KNOW what to expect, so that we are prepared for the worst.
I.E. Imagine USA being without government, or economics. Our country would be useless on many levels. People would be lost, murder and rape would increase dramatically. And America would usher into an anarchy similar to Africa where you have “warlords” using violence to survive. If we knew the end-time scripture, and had it written on our hearts, we would then be able to discern the signs of the times, and be able to articulate what is going on from our understanding of the Word. God also gives dreams and visions. (Which I’ve had many of since I moved to KC.)
Before I make you read a long essay, i’d rather just let you email me your thoughts, and i will answer them the best i can.
I can go on for pages and pages of explanations for how you feel about IHOP and the “movement.”
If you have doubts that God would use visions, visitations, and dreams to speak to who he wishes, on any level, and to lead a body of believers, I pray that you recieve this reality on a very personal level from Him.
thanks!
much love,
adam
Jonah,
Like the look of the new site and wanted to comment on Brian’s experience. I was not there, so I do not know what went on. At the same time, Paul urged to “…know those who minister among you.” If Brian had not been known at IHOP, i.e., had been there for some time, had people see over time how his character was, and known in the sense of who he was and what he was about, I believe IHOP did the right thing in finding out what he was doing. Now again, I don’t know how he was treated, but for someone to just walk into a service as an “unknown,” as far as being under authority and just start anointing people with oil, is not right. Sheperds have a responsibility to protect their sheep and know those who are among their sheep, especially if they have never seen the person. I while I don’t disagree with the garb Brian had on - it’s the heart that matter and the motivation of the heart - I also think it was not wise move to wear that. God has not called us to shake up others’ religious sensibilities in that way. I’ve struggled with this, coming from a background where very casual dress at church was acceptable. I’m now in a church where many wear suits and ties every week and I try to honor that. I do not wear shorts or T-shirts or flip flops, though I’d like to. I believe we should honor the group, even if we don’t necessarily agree.
Adam, good to hear from you.
Jonah, I’m a researcher at heart and don’t really have the time right now to dive into all of this as I’m completing an MBA, which I’ll be done with next year. After that, will enjoy diving into this deeper with you!
Dennis
adam what is your email? i would like to contact you with some question. i am planning on coming to “one thing” in december in KC. i have been doing a lot of research about ihop and things associated with it and would like to have your input about since you have been there a while.
peace
andrew
It should be a real treat if you are at all interested in misuse of Scripture, a skewed interpretation of spiritual gifts and emphasis on fringe doctrine. Have fun. Oh, and you can click on Adam’s name under his comment to get to his website.
-Jonah
thanks for your site jonah. it’s been an interesting read. i am no way “on board” totoally with the ihop movement. i didnt realize there was that much controversy about the place until after i booked a flight for 8 people. i am a fairly new christian, so i am going into this with an open mind and realively no “church/religous” baggage. i have stumbled upon some issues i have with different doctornal views. the “sons of god” is bizzare and unbiblical from what i have researched so far. i have read most of the NT the past couple of days and plan on getting though the prophetic books of the OT this weekend to get a better grasp of things. i am not yet ready to throw the baby out with the bath water…maybe eventually, but not yet. i do beleive that God can work in addition to what is in Scripute, but no contrary to anything in Scripture, so as i sit down and assess what i am reading and how it lines up with there doctorine i know i will be able to side on this issue. i appreciate all youre doing but i just pray that you would prayerfully considered every sentence you type. i have read a lot of comments on your site and while a lot of what you say is really solid and objective, there is some that is harsh and emotionally driven. PLEASE be careful, having a site like this and doing what you are doing comes with a ton of responsibilty.
peace out
andrew
Andrew,
Just how “new” a Christian are you? I have been a Christian for 15 years, and am still studying the Bible, learning more about doctrine and how doctrines determine belief, which actions are based on, etc. It is wonderful that you are going to the source (the Bible, esp. the NT–may I suggest that you delve into the book of John?), but please do not think that you can approach reading the Bible as you would a secular book–in huge gulps, with a lot of skimming–the Bible must be read with thought and concentration, and it cannot be absorbed as one reads novels or magazines. Also, you have undertaken a very ambitious project in trying to get through the prophetic books of the OT in a weekend! It took me 2 full semesters in college to understand anything about the major prophets! In fact, I learned just enough to show myself to be abysmally ignorant!
Reliable commentaries, a good annotated Bible, and peace and quiet at your own kitchen table are all helpful in an in-depth Bible study, and of course you should engage in Bible study prayerfully, asking for the guidance of the Holy Spirit in understanding.
My blunt reaction to your comment was, “Boy does he have a lot to learn!” But you have the rest of your life, so don’t try to go at serious Bible Study as if you’re going to be on “Who Wants to Be a Millionaire” tomorrow. Be satisfied and content to learn what you need to know for today and today’s circumstances…the Holy Spirit will certainly light your path, but usually it is just enough for you to know where to put yur feet in the next step.
I think you will find that the slower you go, the deeper you CAN go.
Andrew, I appreciate your honesty. If you don’t have a background in Christianity, and a strong one at that, you may just gloss over the controversy surrounding IHOP when you’re there. Undoubtedly they talk alot about passion and being sold out. These things seem fine and admirable, but they are not doctrine and if you are going to learn anything about the character of God, you need sound doctrine, especially early on in your walk with him. If you are going to be “sold-out” wouldn’t it make sense to find out who this God is and whether or not he’s worthy of being sold-out to? Let me tell you right away that he is worthy. But the more I hear the descriptions of God coming out of IHOP, the more I realize that, as Keith Gibson so aptly puts it, they are becoming infatuated with a god of their own imagination.
I said it before, please be careful and also, you are going into a charismatic environment and one of the downfalls of this mentality is that anyone who questions tends to be ostricized, like myself. I have friends and family that simply won’t bring this stuff up around me because they know that I will defend what I believe. Any deviation from truth, no matter how benign it seems will inevitably lead to heresy, that is, a wrong view. Look at the Garden. It was just an apple, right?
-Jonah
I second everything that Jonah said (above). I have dear friends who get defensive and angry any time we have any conversation at all on doctrines and beliefs. They put rather more confidence in their affiliation with a church than they do in their relationship with Christ. They are on a church roll, and they eagerly participate in all the church’s programs, I can only conclude that they feel they are saved by works. The usual accusations fly–I am too fundamental, I am “intolerant”, I am “judging” and “condemning others to hell”, etc., etc. Well, if I understand anything about Jesus Christ, He Himself said He is THE way, THE truth, and THE light. He didn’t give us any alternative roads to Heaven. He never said He was A way (just another one out of many). Jesus taught and spoke in terms of absolute truth, not in terms of relativism. How strange it is for people who say that there is no absolute truth to insist that you agree with them!
You might enjoy reading C.S.Lewis’s “Mere Christianity” and “The Screwtape Letters” for additional insights on solid Christian doctrine. But first and foremost, continue to read and study the Bible in an authorized translation, not a paraphrase. KJV, NIV, NKJV are all reliable, and it is helpful to read the same passage in several translations. The Good News Bible, The Book, are paraphrases (they try to express the same ideas and thoughts in modern idiom) and can be useful, but shouldn’t be relied upon to deliver the goods by themselves. Too much of the author’s personal feeling and opinion creep in. That is what is wrong with churches, individuals who feel “anointed”, etc., writing their own versions of the Bible. As Jonah said, they then become “infatuated with a god of their own imagination.”
thank you both for taking the time to respond and offer some thoughts and help. i really appreciate it. your willingness to help really symbolizes what “the church” was intended to be (not necessarily what west. civ. has made it). and my reading pace has slowed down considerably since my post. i was in on a reading “roll” and i got a little too over zealous with my pacing and comphrension ability. it’s not my first time readin though the Bible, i have been repeatedly going over it for about the past year (a little longer actually). i am not reading it just from a personal interpretation level but have used guides in helping to understand word meaning and contexts. i am excited to go to KC. i was worried, but i consulted some well respected brothers whom i consider extremely well learned in scipture and they have assurred me that ihop is not the monster that some people make it out to be. while at times bickle is a bit of a “sensationalist” and may say some things that can be questioned, the meat of his messages and thoughts are sound. my sourcs didnt let him off the hook completely, but did give me the assurrance that in the end it’s solid teaching and no one will be drinking any kool-aide (which i was worried about after reading your site). while the whole idea of the joel army is a lot to chew on, i am fine with it up to a certain extent. there will be a joel army, i do beleive paul cain on that, but i think he tended to keep his mouth moving when the holy spirit stopped speaking and some unbiblical things came out at times. to go along with that thought, as i was seeking the Lord and meditating about the things have been learning about ihop, i believe he brought to my mind the story of noah and how that all shook out with him being naked and drunk. noah was awesome, but even he kinda bottomed out so to speak. so i feel comfortable about going now. i am not however taking other’s thoughts as gospel and i plan on taking your advice and checking out the doctorine, etc. jonah, you seem like a really bright guy, so there has to be a reason for you to have the feelings you do and that will keep me searching for holes. so again, thanks, i appreciate it and way to go “being the church” and helping out and encouraging a brother
Well, you’re going to do what you are going to do. I will say taht Paul Cain is one scary individual even without the homosexuality and alcoholism. Dominion theology is not something to be trifled with. Just a warning. And since DT is the theme of “Joel’s Army,” it is tough to separate it from IHOP at all.
Yes, Noah messed up. But is that justification to follow after a leader whose theology is so strange? The logic doesn’t work. For all the talk about passion and abandonment to God, Bickle’s teachings always seem to be serving a dominionistic end. That’s a major problem and one that I see as irreconcilable.
One more thing to note in general. Fringe charismatic teachings are almost all occultic in practice. They may tell you that “Satan has his counterfeits” but in the same breath advocate anointing people with oil to get rid of demons, fall down “under the power,” flail about and a host of other things that are not biblical (all of these, Mike Bickle has endorsed and some he has taught on.) So do be careful and defend the faith that has already been once, for all delivered to the saints. (That’s from Jude, a wonderful, short book well-worth the read.)
-Drew
Drew,
Jude is an awesome book. I read it the other day. You said that getting rid of deamons, falling down under the power and flailing about is unbiblical? Maybe I am not reading your post correctly or maybe your wording is confusing me.
I am aware of what Dominion theology is. I have read quite a bit on it. If I find it to be true, I’ll go with it. If I think it to be a wich hunt, then I wont accept that label. Every story has two sides…or so I am hoping. If it only has one side, than I dont want any part of it.
Ah, there it is. You must be in a rather “free” charismatic church, right? This is going to open another can of worms entirely. Shoot me an email at thesignofjonah (at) gmail (dot) com. I’ll go into it a little more extensively than I’d like to in the comment thread.
-Drew
andrew, also if you’re interested in Jude, I did a series here, here and here.
-Drew
I sStumbled on your blog while researching for some sources re: IHOP & Bickle to forward to my Bible study group. I actually live within 5 miles of IHOP’s headquarters and our son used to attend Dominion Christian School (now defunct), a ministry of Metro Christian Fellowship (aka Bickle’s former church). Once we ’saw the light’ as to what MCF & the school was all about, we pulled our son out of there lickety split!!!
Andrew, I’d like to challenge you with what John tells us in his first epistle as he strives to reassure the early church that the truth that they had heard from the apostles and the anointing of the Holy Spirit that they’d already received was all there was to ‘get’ and that they didn’t lack anything that the early gnostics were trying to convince them of. There IS NO higher, special knowledge or revelations to be attained. Those truly born again and abiding in the Father ‘have arrived’!
1 John 2:18-27
‘Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it (HE’S TELLING THEM TO REST IN THE TRUTH THAT THEY ALREADY KNOW) and because no lie comes from the truth. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist - he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. (THERE’S NOTHING NEW FOR THEM TO KNOW!) If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us - even eternal life.
I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray (THE EARLY GNOSTICS). As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you and you do not need anyone to teach you (HE’S SAYING, ‘YOU’RE FINE. REST ASSURED, YOU ARE ANOINTED. YOU HAVE ALL YOU NEED - ALL THERE IS). But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit - just as it has taught you, remain in him (DON’T GO RUNNING AFTER A JOHNNY-COME-LATELY WITH A NEW TRUTH/VISION/REVELATION/ETC JUST BE STILL & KNOW THAT HE IS GOD AND THAT IF HE LOVED US ENOUGH TO SEND US HIS ONLY SON THAT HE WOULD HAVE MADE ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT THE EARLIEST OF BELIEVERS HAD ALL THERE WAS TO BE HAD.’
Similar to the Catholic church, I see the charismatic movement having Gnostic foundations in that there is a higher level of knowledge, spirituality, etc.
Andrew, belvoed brother in Christ, guard your heart!!! Satan is the Great Deceiver who has mastered taking a grain of God’s truth and hybridizing it into a SEEMINGLY benign or even beneficial difference. According to 1 John, the fact that DT espouses a higher level of anointing alone defines it as anti-christ.
Your sister in Christ,
Donna
Donna, I can’t think of anything to add but a hearty “amen.”
andrew one more thing. In your comment you said:
“I am aware of what Dominion theology is. I have read quite a bit on it. If I find it to be true, I’ll go with it. If I think it to be a wich hunt, then I wont accept that label. Every story has two sides…or so I am hoping. If it only has one side, than I dont want any part of it.”
DT is heresy. In its purest form it denies the second coming of Christ and replacing it with the idea that he is coming back “in spirt” and in power to the church. In lesser forms, such as Apostolic Pre-millenialism taught at IHOP, it downplays the second coming, stating that we must do all we can so that when Christ does return, there will be certain earthly systems (governments, laws etc…
that Jesus will not have to sanctify.
You will not get an admission from a Dominionist that these are what their teachings do and that is why you must be careful, figure out what doctrine they are promoting and flee from all false teaching.
-Drew
what worries me is that the comments being posted on this topic by individuals are painfully one sided. i am not denying that questions should be raised about different practices that occurr in the “charasmatic” or “IHOP” movement, but to just stomp the whole thing down with nothing left standing is worrisome. for me anyway, it drains your opinions of a significant amount of credibility.
as far as DT is concerned, believe me, i would love to see it all over the place as i research (and will experience in person) this so called “movement”. that would make it easy to shake this whole thing off and be done with it. the fact of the matter remains is that i have been doing my homework and DT doesnt really seem to line up with IHOP at all from what i have seen so far. i am sure that if you wanted to bad enough you could snowball different things and eventually make the snowball big enough to be a mountain called DT. as it stand however, i dont see it…and beleive me, i would love to see it, save me from putting in any more time researching it. i’ll continue to be cautious as i explore what going on, but i would encourage you to do the same…
Hey Andrew,
I just read your comments. I have a couple questions for you. How was the conference and what are your thoughts on the whole IHOP movement now? Lastly, if you have formed a solid opinion (or even if not) what has led to to conclude what you now think?
Thanks bro,
Tim
Regarding Jonah’s reply to Andrew a few posts back… “I said it before, please be careful and also, you are going into a charismatic environment…”
The same could be said of anyone reading the book of Acts.
Hold up now…did that article say that we aren’t people who are supposed to usher in the second coming. Sure, we may not be the very generation but the principle behind what they’re saying is very true and that is the biblical fact that we can hasten the day of the Lord. If we can hasten the day, we can also slow it down. Basically, Jesus wants to come back for a pure bride. I bride that’s mature. Ephesians said he gave gifts to men so that we can reach maturity. There’s other versus I could find to endorse the concept of Jesus wanted a pure church, but it’s obvious even without those verses that hastening the day of the Lord is done by being ready. God’s not coming back for immaturity.
Jesus wants to come back for a mature church. That’s why we can hasten the day of the Lord. This is a very unique generation because God has been restoring truths that are causing us to look more and more like the first church. More accuracy means more maturity. The principle behind what they’re saying is that we could help bring this thing to a close, but hastening the day through obedience.
A mature church cannot be based on false theology. Nor can we hasten the day of the Lord by obedience alone. Since the whole world is constatnly disobeying, (including us Christians), if we based Christ’s coming back strictly on that premise, He could never come back!
So, to suggest that the King of Kings and Lord of Lords somehow needs an apolstolic movement to help Him out, is preposterous, and not congruent with these verses from Colossians 1:
“And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist. And He is the head of the body , the church, who is the beginning of the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He might have pre-eminence. For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell.”
“And having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Him, by Himself, I say, whether they be things on earth or things in heaven.”
Doesn’t sound much like He needs an apostolic movement to me.
Those versus are great. I actually love those particular verses in Colossians. But what your expressing is the most common thing I run into in trying to explain why we need the body of Christ to operate correctly. The idea that all we need is Jesus and He doesn’t need His body to get done what needs to be done. Well, sure He could do things without His body, but He has chosen to accomplish His purposes through His body. You could use your same argument to say that we don’t need local churches cause Jesus is big enough to do it all. Well, sure He is but He established the idea of local churches. Also, you could say that Jesus doesn’t need prayer to bring us to maturity but that’s not true. He established this idea of prayer to accomplish his purposes in the earth. Remember, the biblical phrase standing in the gap. He could do whatever He wants but He has chosen to depend on someone to stand in the gap. In the garden, God gave man dominion of the earth. This means man has some responsibility. Also, in a Corinthians verse he says we are co-laborers with the Lord. Would you have told the apostle Paul to back off from His body of Christ analogy when He used the hand, etc. cause it made it seem like God depended on His body. Surely not. This is how God set it up. If we are His body, He expects us to let Him live through us. He if we choose to disobey, then it brings some of God’s purposes to a halt. Yes, God will get the job done, but He’s going to do it through the church. We are His vehicle to the world. The apostolic movement makes total biblical sense because it is simply ushering in another important aspect of His body for Him to shine through. I have to offer this very same type argument to all my friends who say they’re passionate for Jesus but won’t get plugged into a local church. I write this sincerely. Do you see what I’m saying?
Sorry Tyler, I don’t follow your arguments. I believe that Christ works through His Body constanly and without “movements”. I just do not believe He does it under the false theology of apostolic ‘movements.” I believe He is all sufficient, and all we need to work in His Body, because of that reason, not despite it. I know many fine people who get way more accomplished of what you are talking about in His body simply following HIS great Commission.
I do thank you for one thing: I had been on the edge of being a cesessionist, and what you have said convinces me that I need to move on over into that camp, so I’ll avoid being brainwashed by extreme beliefs that claim to be for the good of body, but operate outside the word of God to accomplish their purposes. So thanks for that, Tyler!
Everything I said was scriptural though. God does work through his body through restoration of certain biblical concepts such as Luther’s reformation and the awakening of spiritual gifts at different times throughout history. And What I’m talking about deals with both making mature disciples as well as operating under a new testament structure that equips saints to be effective in the great commission. The theology I mentioned is not particularly apostolic theology but pastoral theology as well. It’s a basic understanding of the body of Christ and how Christ has chosen us to be his hands and feet on this earth. God is sovereign but has chosen us to cooperate with Him. You said I’m saying things outside of God’s word, but you didn’t say what. I’m curious. You couldn’t find a verse discouraging my argument against the need for prayer and people to accomplish God’s purpose for the entire bible is about people obeying God and bringing forth His purposes. God always raises up somebody to do His will. We are His workmanship created in Christ for good works which He established before hand that we should walk in them (Eph. 2:10) You can’t dislodge the concept of apostles. It’s all over the New testament and every church operated under that type of leadership. Just tell me what’s unscripturally. I’m trying to be very reasonable here.
No , Tyler, i don’t follow your opinions, because so far they have been just that. Tell us in a scriptural way, quoting specifc verses, why God says that we need a new movement to carry out the Great Commission. I don’t think you can.
I could give a whole list of scriptures about how God uses His body like the one dealing with how the different parts need each other (the eye and hand,etc.). I could give you Ephesians 4:11-13 again to show the different calls He’s given and how they equip saints. I could find various scriptures about how the new testament church operated under apostolic authority. We even see this in action with the Pauline letters. Yes, we can obey the Great Commission at any level of maturity, but we get more accomplished when we’re all working together. That’s all I’m really saying. If you really want I could dig all those scriptures out but if you’re looking for one scripture that says, “In order to fully operate with the most effectiveness you need to allow all of the five fold minsitries work together to help equip the saints.” I don’t have that exactly but the word does basically say that in Ephesians. And go to all the other verses on the subject and it become obvious that we need to operate more like the first church. (The bible doesn’t flat out explain the trinity but it becomes obviously all through the bible) I do have the Ephesians verses, Other verses in Corinthians that talk about apostles. (deals with their authority) Also, there are various verses that reveal the grace that was in Paul’s life and we know he was an apostle and can tie the grace he had into the apostolic call. We needed Luther’s reformation to more effectively pull of the Great Commission. To not think God would restore more things to His church to help us be more effective seems silly. But…..I just write this now because there are so many different verses I could grab. I might do it later if ya want.
Yes, we definitely want to see all the scriptures that prove what you are basing your belief upon, that we desperately need an apostolic movement to reform the modern day church.
Rather than a reformation, what we all need is a return to the process of letting Christ Himself personally transform and renew our minds. That is scriptural. No apostolic movement or prophet is capable of that, as Paul himself frequently pointed out.
True revival and reformation has to take place in the heart of each believer first.
So, to the extent that each of us personally makes an committment to reflect and modelthe teachings of Christ in a truthful manner, (which includes testing all things to see if they line up with God’s word,) we will be equipped with everything we need to carry on His work, both in the body and in the outside world.
After all, if every church in America was shut down tomorrow, do you honestly believe we couldn’t still carry on the work of Christ effectively? That’s the impression you’re leaving Tyler like it or not.
So, I am lost here… I was under the impression because of Acts Chapter 1 and 2 that in order to be an Apostle you needed to be one who actually saw and was discipled by Christ which means to me that those original 12 and then the one who replaced Judas were personally discipled by Christ and chosen by Him. And others who were called to be Apostles in church history, early days, were also out of the 70 who were disciples by Christ. Paul himself was chosen by God himself on the road. So, if I am interpreting the scripture right there are no more Apostles and if there are how do they get selected and recognized by the church? Please enlighten me.
Thanks
http://www.letusreason.org/Pent1.htm
Here is an interesting article on Apostles… What do you think Tyler?
Well, the verse in Acts was a discussion they were having about who would be qualified among them to replace Judas. It was obvious to them they should pick someone whose been with them since John’s baptism and who was a witness to Jesus resurrection, seeing that there were some in that category among them. On that occasion, those credentials made much sense in regard to who had the most understanding and who would be good to carry out the role. However, there were apostles later who hadn’t believed since John like Paul. That’s all I’ll say at this point. I’m still looking up some scriptures.
New Identity,
You are right on. Paul qualified as an apostle because he was personally taught by Christ. In his letter to the Galatians he explains a little about how this took place. He did not receive his gospel from men but from the Lord. These men laid the foundation for the church through the scriptures they left. In this sense they still direct the church today. There are no apostles in the sense that John, Peter, Paul etc were.
Now where some discussion may be legitimate is whether or not there is a lesser gift that has to do with church planting and oversight. There are times when others seem to be called apostles in scripture like Barnabus and Silas among others. We need to remember that the word “apostle” means a messenger. So there may be times when the scripture is using the word in the sense of the apostolic office which laid the doctrinal foundation of the church and other times when it may be used more in the sense of a missionary or church planter, what might be termed a “small a”, apostle. (That’s my phrase, I can’t say that is “thus saith the Lord”
The problem that I have is that many of the teachers today are claiming a status that does not belong to them. They are not of the status and calling of Paul but they claim to be even greater than Paul. We do not need apostles to lay again the foundation that has already been laid. We do not need these new teachers inventing new doctrines.
It is significant that, although the early bishops (called the Church Fathers) saw themselves as the successors to the apostles. They did so in the sense of being the guardians of the apostolic faith not inventors of new additional doctrines. What I mean is that they saw their role as being that of protecting what the apostles laid down. They did not see themselves as having authority to add to it.
There was no effort ever in the early church to replace the first generation of apostles with others to carry on that office and take that title. This is extremely significant. If it is essential to the function of the church that apostles like Paul, Peter etc continue then why didn’t they themselves ordain some? After all, they didn’t all die on the same day.
-k
We don’t need apostles to lay down new doctrine. That certainly was a unique role of the first generation of aposltes but that had to occur because the new testament church was just beginning. But just because they were used to lay down a foundation then doesn’t mean that God doesn’t want to still use people to help establish sound biblical doctrine today. God still needs apostles to lay proper biblical foundation in churches. God graces certain people to help the church build on proper foundation-not new foundation. There are plently of Bible believing churches that would say that God’s word is inerrant but they aren’t building on proper foundation. The main foundation is the Person of Christ who we are to grow into deeper relatioship to through consistent obedience. But there are certain foundational mentalities of Christ and His ways that leaders have to help churches build on. Paul said he was a wise master builder. So it’s easy to say we love Jesus, we believe the Bible, and we meet on Sundays and Wednesdays. But God has given specific leadership calls to help churches actually operate in unity and power. Don’t you know many churches that believe in the Bible and Jesus but still seem stuck. For instance, one foundational building stone out of Christ’s ways is the idea of correct value systems. Do we primarily value how many show up to our church or how obedient our church is being to God. We can’t build on numbers but on accuracy in our corporate walk with God. Jesus turned the world upside down with 12 men. Also, one of the building blocks that leaders need to build their churches on is the idea of the progressive nature of God. God is who He is in that He doesn’t change, but He is always moving us forward into more and more understanding. Many churches are locked down into one Revelation they received 50 years ago and (perhaps about salvation) don’t realize that God has more kingdom reality to reveal. So sure, the Word is essential but God still uses leaders to help churches build on accurate mentalities. And keep in mind that there’s a certain anointing or grace that rests in the various calls. When people come in relationship to different aspects of the body, they recieve different things. I might come into relationship with the eye of Christ’s body and start to have more sight in relation to what God is currently doing. The Bible says these calls equip saints to minister better. This apostolic call is one that has a grace to build accurately. I’ve seen people in relation to true apostes and they start to partake in some of that same apostolic spirit. They start having more wisdom in how to allow God’s kindgom to infiltrate every area of their life such as how to build a business and a family like God would. They start to make decisions and display wisdom and strategies from the mind of Christ because they’re linked to a call that has a specific anointing for that type of thing. That’s just one example of how the grace that rests on this call can help us. What are your thoughts Keith?
delet the last comment. the site looks like it is porn or something
Done. Thanks for the heads up. Our spam blocker didn’t catch that one.
Tim (sorry I havent been on here a few months, so this is a much belated reply),
About IHOP (One Thing)… When I went I was very critical, just looking for the negative things that some purpose. It really drained me my first couple days there. I was praying constantly for discernment and clarity to be able to pick up on anything to solidfy the heresey of it all…BUUUUT, come to find out the heresy and false teaching that some accuse them of is non-exsistent. It appears to be people from a school of thought and theology that seeks to put a harness on God about what He can/is/will do and what he won’t.
Sure, IHOP has a certain vocabulary for certain things (which does take time to get familiar with), but all of which are Biblical concepts and principles. Sure, they like the end times….but shouldnt we all be that eager and expectant if we really love Jesus and realize that He loves us. After all, isnt that what all of human history is working too: complete restoration with our Redeemer? Some people are offended at Jesus. It’s that simple. They will rattle off Bible verses, doctorine, theology til they have themselves all puffed up, but once the verses are put into context and the knowledge of God into the doctorine, sadly they are left with nothing but “religious” (in the negative sense) thoughts and then arrogantly spread those same religious thoughts to others who want a comfortable Jesus and God that they can control and manipulate as they wish, while bashing anyone that stands in there way.
I’m saddened now to read sites like this and glad IHOP has very tactfully placed “Q and A’s” on their site to answer some of these allegations and, in my opinion, sucessfully clarifying a completely Biblical foundation for everything. I’m convinced, sadly, that as it stands, far too many in the Church today would condemn the Apostles as false teachers and heretics if they were alive in the 1st century.
Some of the “religious” spirits of people in the Church have been grounded in dogma that has been drained of the revelation, love, and power of God from the message of the Gospel and that is sad. The Church desperately needs and will eventually quit contending amongst itself and get back to a reality of who God is and what He is doing. Unfortunately, it will be a very painful and humbling process for some, but thank God it will happen. (If you want references here are a couple: Rms 8:18-end, Rev 19, 22…process of unifying of the Bride (Church) as we near the Return (and I am not saying it’s 5 years or 500 years). Im tired, Im sorry if this typing or thoughts read incoherently. Bottom line, I loved what is happening in KC and now all around the world with this increased emphasis on prayer and being a Bride that is preparing for the Bridegroom God whenever the times do reach their fulfillment.
Andrew
Hey Andrew it would seem to me that any one programmed from the IHOP fad, receive a free a 101 demonology coarse! You are a fine example of that. You’re not the first and am sure you’ll not be the last IHOP’er to call bible believing Christians
‘Religous’ spirits!
Now my question would be
Is that the religous spirit of James?
Jas 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
I can’t help but get the impression that the IHOP supporters tend to view religion with a negetive impression once again demonstrating how anti biblical their movement really is!
Andrew,
Well brother. Again as in most comment by those who are concerned with the teachings of IHOP, we have been there or involved in some way with it for far to long and thanks be to God, His love for us, His truth, He has shown us the errancy in what is taught.
If you look at the faith and doctrines that are posted on their site it aligns with the church doctrines/creed. But in reality as you read the material, look at what is being condoned in the book store and really listen to or read teachings. There is a problem (IT IS HERESY) in the theology. One can make all the right answer (Q and A)and still hide the truth of their beliefs.
Andrew said, [...]It appears to be people from a school of thought and theology that seeks to put a harness on God about what He can/is/will do and what he won’t.[...]
Simply not true, many of us and I have seen and been apart of some pretty fantastic things that God has done and is doing in the church. I have as many others have, seen the move of the Holy Spirit in a biblical way that would “rock your world”. I choose not to put God in the box that those believe we are putting him in from within the “prophetic movement” and believe that He is my “all in all” according to His Word. He is the Soveriegn God (Exodus) the “I Am that I Am”. More awesome than the God of IHOP who care for me and you “because He first loved me”.
From my commentary copyright 1953, given to me in 1974.
II Peter 2:1-22 Admonitory - false prophets
Stress on the importance of looking forward to the fulfilment of Spirit-given prophecy leads Peter to issue a warning about false prophecies that will be put forward. It is striking that this is a feature also of Jesus’ teaching about the future (Mk13:22 23). This chapter should be compared carefully with Jude 4-18.
2:1-3 Their danger.
This is threefold: they destroy themselves by their denial of Christ (Mt. 10:33) they draw others to follow them and decry orthodox Christianity, and they will seek to make financial gain from genuine believers by their false teachings.
2:10b-22 Their character.
The apostle now proceeds to elaborate the danger these men constitute by describing more fully their true nature. They are insolent (vv10-12) licentious (v13) immoral (v14) and greedy (vv14b-16). By such behavior they attract and enslave the newly converted (vv17-19) and so Peter concludes this section by uttering a warning of serious consequences of a Christian backsliding into immorality.
Interesting. Didn’t these writers “hit the nail on the Head”. See any of this in these self proclaims prophets???
But I guess if you have come over to the side of IHOP teaching accepting the Latter Rain Theology/Dominion Theology/Joel’s Army/Manifested Sons of God Theology, then there is really nothing else we can say whether from the scriptures (which there are plenty of on this site) or our personal testamonies to convince you of truth. The truth still stands that the basic theology that they teach is heresy. No in between and no ands, ifs, or buts about it.
I guess our discussions are done.
Paul, there is a Godly “religious” spirit like in James, Isaiah 58, etc. and there is an negative “religious” spirit prepetuated by the Pharisees. And I dont think I said anyone didnt believe in the Bible. Even Satan himself believes in the Bible. My example, the Pharisees, believed in the Bible. They were blinded to the fulfillment of the prophetics, but they still believed in the Scriptures. I am certain I was not codemning anyone, rather just calling a spade a spade. I think it is obvious the one I was alluding too.
If it is a fad to be excited about God, Jesus, Eternity with a God who infinitely loves His creation, intimacy with the aforementioned, fasting, praying, worshipping through singing, studying the Bible, fellowshipping with other Believers, feeding the poor, evangelizing to a lost world, funding outreaches all over the world in the name of Jesus, holding gatherings where Believers can come together from all over the country and world to be in one accord, THEN I AM A PART OF THE “IHOP FAD” as you are asserting I believe.
Out of curiosity, I believe you referred to me as an “IHOP’er”??? I don’t get it??? That’s not in my Bible. If you believe that what is happening in IHOP and these other houses of prayer around the world is unbiblical and “demonology”, then we are reading different Bibles and that would explain the issue you are taking.
Iwantthetruth,
Our discussion is apparently not done. Sadly, you have fallen for a lot of “here-say” and fed yourself off other people’s experiences and neglected to find the root of the tree for yourself. It really breaks my heart that you fell for this, along with many others.
At first, I felt the same way as you. I could have written this comment for you word for word. But when I checked things out for myself, I found things to be quite the contrary. I am very fearful that this whole site is perpetuated by the “pass it down game” where some one says something and by the time it gets to the end of the line, the original message is non-exsistent.
First off, IHOP has a link on their site dealing with their beliefs and controversies where they address the sons of God/Joels Army/Latter Rain…all of that. All of that stuff is garbage and they dont believe in all the heresy and unbiblical principles that have been associated with those.
Secondly, I know all about the stuff with Paul Cain, Bob Jones, etc. I know they believed some hereitical things and had issues with immoral behavior. Mike Bickle has come out and confessed they messed up with some associations and even some things he was directly a part of. They have worked extremly hard to distance themselves from those past mistakes.
Sadly though, some will not let go of past mistakes and see the glory of what is being manifest now through this ministry. If we are going to hold Cain and Jones as prisoners for their behavior and denounce the ministry on account of them, so be it. It’s important to remember the way God did use these men. Noah screwed up, so did David, Jonah, etc. Jesus said in Matthew 7 that it would be possible for people to prophesy and do signs and wonders in His name, yet not be in the Kingdom. Paul talks about how even if the Gospel is preached for wrong motive, the most important thing is that it is being preached.
I challenge you to look at things for how they are. I know where you are. I was there…
Sorry, one more thing I missed…
You are offended at the bookstore??? You are offended that people are trying to encourage us to have watchful spirits so we are found faithful to Jesus when He returns??? Is it the titles of the books because they have words like “Jesus, Returns, Interpret, Prophetic” and things like that??? Have you read all of them or are you “judging a book by its cover”??? I was freaked out a first too, dont get me wrong, but I began to read the ones that bothered me the most and I found out that the books werent what I thought they were and were really quite thought provoking in a healthy sense. I am certain that no one out there is starting an IHOP office pool for the 2nd Coming as some expect. Eager and Expectant, yes. Stupid and heretical, no.
i am glad that someone finally mentioned that the IHOP web site adresses the issues being disputed here. The thing that impressed me the most about mike Bickle is that when asked if someone could start a ministry under his authority he told them no. He does not appear to be out to build a kingdom for himself. If the web sight says they do not adhere to these teachings and you say they do than i suggest that you stop calling them Christians.
I have been reading this web sight for a good portion of the day and night. After my last comment I went back and revisited the iHOP site. They do not appear to be near as bad as you say they are. Unless of course they know that they are wrong and are falsly identifying themselves to trick people into their web of deciet. I am a bit confused by this. If that is what they are doing than you should come right out and say it. Otherwise you might do well to visit the site and check out what they say they do and dont believe. It appears to me that you may be tacking labels on them that they do not deserve. It is obvious that they do not interperate the bible the same as you do (on what I would call non-salvation issues) but they do not profess to be the things you say they are. Why are you so bent on destroying the character of Gods servants. Or are you implying that they are agents of Satan and leading many people into hell. Perhaps the reason why more people are not speaking out against this is because they cant find the problems you are seeing.
Andrew what is so hard to understand about the term ‘IHOPer’? It is a person who is involved in IHOP!
Just as a blogger is someone who is involved in writing blogs etc.
I am glad you clarified the difference between your invention of what a religous spirit is and what the Bible actually says true religion is. The only negetive reference that I can see in scripture relation to the negative religion is this:
Col 2:18 Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God. 20 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations– 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)–according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
Paul here speaks of self made religion and describes much of the very things you boast about as part of the practice of IHOP.
Does Ihop go into details about visions? ( I think we all know the answer to this.) Does Ihop encourage asceticism (The Oxford dictionary defines this as ’severely abstinent for spiritual benefit’!)
Ill just quote you Andrew
“If it is a fad to be excited about God, Jesus, Eternity with a God who infinitely loves His creation, intimacy with the aforementioned, fasting”,….
Notice Andrew how the very first discipline mentioned from your previous post to me was fasting. This is a biblical discipline so please do not argue with me on a moot point but I find it interesting that it is at the top of your list in achieving the ‘intimacy with the God who infinately loves his creation’. Ahead of both prayer, bible study and acts of service!
The apostle Paul says “These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.”
Ahh! the flesh! that is an interesting topic as Paul says that such practices have no value in stopping its indulgences.
Did you know that it was Bob Jones who prophecied to Mike Bickle concerning the birthing of IHOP? Yes the same Bob Jones who clearly had no control over his own flesh! (to find out about his fleshly ministry just google his name I will not print his moral failures here.)
Andrew the very criticism that we perpetually hear coming from IHOPers is that we have a religious spirit every time we attempt to warn people of this fads shortcomings! I suspect that the title is more suited to the IHOP movement.
yes I shall defend my calling IHOP a fad. Again using the Oxford dictionary, ‘fad ‘ is defined as:
A peculiar notion or rule of action. a craze. ( Peculiar-Belonging exclusively to, 2: strange odd!
This movement fits the description of fad because its practice of prayer is strange or odd when compared to the way the Church has prayed for 2000 years. The fact that Mr. Bickle needs to give the adherents a ‘grid’ to even embrace his teachings based upon his heavenly encounters is evidence of how peculiar IHOP really is.
Religious zeal means nothing. The extreme example of this is manafest in a suicide bomber! Truth is what is most important because without truth it is impossible to worship God or even know Him. The responsibility to persue the truth is given to every one of us and God will hold us all accountable in this regard.
Paul,
Colossian 2:19 “…not holding fast to the Head…” ummm?! Isn’t it the supremacy of Jesus that the “IHOP’ers” preach? Perhaps you dont know because you only listen to what other people tell you (aka “the easy way out”). Negative “religion” is Luke 11:37-54 and the like. Sadly there is too much of it in the Body.
Sure, they talk about dreams and visions. People have them. It was a prophetic promise dating back to the days of Joel. Do they exalt them about Jesus himself or over-glorify them, absolutely not. You may think they do because you read biased blogs and perhaps have never be aquainted about how teaching is really done there (and I am not talking about goign to one conference, but continually hearing the teaching over time and judging it then).
And when I mentioned the Christ-like evidence of the leading of Holy Spirit at IHOP with passion for God, Jesus, and so on, I assumed it was pretty clear that I was not necessarily mentioning them a prioritized order. I’m sorry if I was unclear and you misinterpreted that.
And you attack on Bob Jones: yeah, he messed up. Did you ever mess up, Paul? Should no one ever listen to you because you messed up before? I am not trying to lessen the sin he was caught in or some of the strange beliefs he promoted at times, but do look how the Lord did use him in a positive way for the edification and vision of the Body. Like I said before: Adam, Noah, David, Jonah, Peter… Should we just start ripping out the pages of the Bible because some people messed up from time to time and not rejoice in the positive things God did through them.
So based on your definition from Oxford, should we just call the entire Bible a fad then? Whether you realize it or not, that’s what you are saying.
And I dont think I ever referred to you personally as religious or necessarily anyone opposed to IHOP. You seem offended about that though. Im sorry. And finally, I think the “grid” is for people who have a narrow-minded view of the Bible and the workings of the Holy Spirit in the Messianic Era. I am not saying to cultivate unbiblical ideas, but rather to get beyond a typical casual surface reading of Scripture, letting the Word get through us rather than us getting through the Word. Once one gets over being offended about maybe having a shallow view of God and Scripture, I believe things begin to take on a much deeper meaning.
I am not trying to be confrontation (as I sense you are), but I just want you to look objectively. Look at it for what it really is, not what your Google searches are telling you. Like I said before, I’ve been where you are.
Andrew how could you possibly know what I listen to? How do you know if I have never been to harp and bowl prayer sessions?
In actual fact I have been in the Charismatic wing of the church for 18 years and was involved with the Vineyard denomination for 6 years.
Have I ever messed up? Well if you mean, have I ever used my spiritual gifts to sexually violate God’s children then the answer is no! Or have I ever as a leader in the Church allowed such a person to minister after comitting such sins then the answer is no once again.
Bob Jones the so called prophet that you are attempting to justify has sexually exploited christians under his authority while at Kansas City fellowship and Mike Bickle after supposedly disciplining the man still associates with him. Indeed the fingerprints of Jones are all over IHOP and its questional dogma and practice.
Where is the pastoral care or biblical justification for that?
Andrew please listen to what the Apostle Paul says:
1Co 5:9 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people– 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler–not even to eat with such a one.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
I suppose that those in IHOP would label me a legalist for adhering to such scripture. Yes Ive heard it all before, A bible thumper, judgemental, a critical spirit, not operating in grace, a fundamentalist… and on it goes. Most of the time such criticism comes from those outside of the body even though our responsibility as christians is to concern ourselves with purity in the church not outside it!
The bible says that all have sined and fall short of the glory of God but my messing up, as you put in no way justifies the sin that certain men who call them selves brothers are allowed to perform and yet continue to speak as leaders in Christ’s Church!
Actually I’ll take a guess and say that I have been part of the charismatic church for longer than perhaps you have been a follower of Jesus? If I’m wrong here, as I said it is a guess. But Andrew even if I am wrong, please do not think for a moment that I am unfamiliar with the thinking within this wing of the Church.
lol .. No Andrew I am not calling the whole bible a fad. ( I do not believe thats what you realy think im saying)
Andrew the documentation of false teaching, abuse, spiritually , emotionally and sexually, steming from the Kansas City church and its off shoot ministries is extensive.
Even if you win every verbal debate here and else where, is that in any way going to justify the clear biblical warnings against such a group? Do you really think that men can passionately practice a type of religiosus expression that contrdicts scripture and still be pleasing and acceptable in the eyes of the Holy Lord?
I will leave you with a warning from the Lord Jesus himself!
Mat 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
lawlessness, Andrew is the absence of God’s laws or commandments. If IHOP does not adhere to the laws of scripture they will be unacceptable to the Lord.
Andrew,
May I interject here for a moment? i was exposed for many years to the IHOP teachings, not only through personal attendance at several of their conferences, but under two pastors who accepted and promoted these teachings verbatim, with no questions. I heard this stuff day in and day out for almost 10 years.
As people began to see the flaws in it, they started drifting away because they were called “religious spirits” or were put down very harshly because they based their truth on proven biblical precepts, rather than the fallible words of men. In time, I saw two churches completely destroyed because of their failure to heed real prophetic warnings from God to avoid this false teaching.
So, I would submit to you that in actuality this is what happened to Abraham, Noah and David and others who went against the word of God in the first place. They toocose to do their own thing, when their human desires came up against the will of God. They had to be brought back in line with it, before they could fully carry out their mission in the way God willed it in the first place. That God would do that is certainly a testimony to the fact that he doesn’t give up on us when we make mistakes, even willful ones.
So, I have no objection to your point about Bob Jones, and company as long as they genuinely repent, and come back into right standing with both God AND His word. Just to repent of personal sin, then turn around and continue to prophesy falsely in His name seems like an oxymoron to me.
Sometimes God allows false teaching as a test to see where our real loyalty lies, to Him or to the traditions of men. I believe in order to tell the difference we must also take into account long term results. The Pharisees who crucified Jesus did not do because He was fulfilling Bible prophecy, but because he challenged their pet theology, and stood uncompromisingly for the truth of His Father. They were so intent on promoting their “movement” they missed the fact that He WAS the proof of God’s written word in person.
That’s what many do not understand about Jesus. I believe when we think someone has more of the truth than God’s word does, we are separating God from His Son, and when that happens, we fall into the pit of the blind leading the blind , as Jesus warned. Exactly what old satan desires.
Many other highly respected theologians disagree with the teachings modern day prophetic movement, and there are links all over this site to their arguments against it, if you are not satisfied with what you find here. So there are lots of people speaking out.
Simply defending a ministry who claims to have a “new” movement or revelation of God, because we “feel” it’s more right for us than 2000 years of proven results, is not going to make it truth anymore than if I called myself a tree when I am, in fact, a person. I can sincerely call myself anything I like, and even just as sincerely believe it. That’s my choice. But wouldn’t I be completely foolish to go against God’s will of making me a person, and stand outside in the cold, rain heat and snow instead to prove that I was a tree, when it’s quite obvious I’m not?
By the same token, we cannot deny that God’s universal truth is always going to prevail, no matter what we humans think, or how we act, or how wholeheartedly we believe in a particular ministry is correct or not. I believed in two churches, who are now non-existent, simply because they wouldn’t listen to real prophetic warnings. Personally, I choose not to make the same mistake again. As a brother in Christ, I hope you won’t either.
Paul,
I’m convinced beyond all doubt that you have many issues within the Body and sadly you are using IHOP as your whipping boy.
I would have thought immorality and false teaching in the body of Christ would have been every Christian’s issue. Am I wrong there Andrew?
mbaker,
I couldnt agree with you more. There have been, continue to be, and will be many abuses among those who are prophetically gifted. This is inevitable while we are still in our fleshly bodies. It comes with the territory. While doctorine and theology are essential to who we are, there is a fine line which one may cross to where they become more focused in on dogma than on letting Scripture interpret Scripture. I am not doubting or confirming that the leaders of your former church said things that were unbiblical. Anyone can take something perfectly Biblical and make it unbiblical in a hurry. I dont see that at IHOP. Sure, people may accuse them of these things, but that doesnt make it true. As someone said earlier ‘you can call a something a tree, but unless it’s really a tree, it’s not a tree’ (or something like that). Just because people are IHOP supporters doesnt mean they have sound doctorine and theology themselves.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, but in my most unbiased opinion possible, I cant agree with your feelings toward IHOP. God knows I am seriously trying to look at things objectively here. Like I said, I had big-time doubts about IHOP. The problem with this site and others like it is that they are emotionally driven and not based on objective investigation and observation. Everyone has an agenda.
Paul,
I’m glad you arent being too generous with forgiving people for there sins. Good thing God didnt send you to be the Messiah or we would all be screwed. Last time I checked, Jones or Cain was no longer associated with IHOP. Should their lives in ministry be over AFTER they are restored, I dont think so. Should they be held to the utmost accountibility in action and doctorine, absolutely yes.
What is the false teaching you are referring too? And what is the correct teaching? If you can answer this, then you got me and I’ll agree with you.
Thats what i was saying Andrew. When I check out the statement of beliefs on the iHOP web sight i do not see the things that are being discussed here ie manifest sons. My question once again is Mike Bickle lying about what he says he believes. Another comment. If God is working through IHOP the way that it appears that He is it only makes sense that you would see some moral failure in the leadership. After all Satan works hardest to destroy the cutting edge of what God is doing. I dont believe he concerns himself much with the lukewarm church. They are no threat
Andrew,
You said:
“mbaker, Iagree with you wholeheartedly, but in my most unbiased opinion possible, I cant agree with your feelings toward IHOP. God knows I am seriously trying to look at things objectively here. Like I said, I had big-time doubts about IHOP. The problem with this site and others like it is that they are emotionally driven and not based on objective investigation and observation. Everyone has an agenda.”
I have to tell you that because of all the specific biblical references these posts contain, I cannot understand your reasoning in that last line. I have also personally given you one example of eyewitness observation, which you also asked for from us in a previous post. You rejected it because it was not what you wanted to hear about IHOP. Others have done the same. We have all complied with your requests.
So, I cannot understand why you would say this is an emotionally driven website, when you are obviously defending IHOP on a personal basis. That was definitely a cheap, and unwarranted shot you took at Paul, for example, who humbled himself enough to write about his experiences on another post on this site, called “A Minster Apologizes For Toronto”. Please read that if you haven’t already.
I genuinely hope you will understand that it is the faith we are contending for here, and that is based upon the truth of the word of God, and intepreted and agreed upon as correct for 2000 years by the majority of mainstream Christianity. If it doesn’t agree with your personal preferences that’s fine. You are entitled to choose what and whom you choose to believe. As you said, everyone has an agenda.
So far from your posts, I have learned nothing to back your claims that IHOP is now genuine. All I can see from your extreme reactions so far is that when you are confronted with the facts that disprove IHOP’s teachings, is that you are instead trying to make us the issue. That’s been done by just about everyone who has ever been on here who defends IHOP personally, but can’t back up its position based upon the word of God.
I hope we can continue to dialogue with you, but, I for one, cannot bring myself to do that with someone who is going to persist in making unfounded personal accusations. So please do us all a favor, and stick with the issue unemotionally and objectively yourself. If you have factual, scriptural information which would refute anything said here, please do present it.
Thanks, and God bless.
[...] The problem with this site and others like it is that they are emotionally driven and not based on objective investigation and observation. Everyone has an agenda.[...]
Andrew,
I am really sorry but I don’t think you have read all of the posts and comments. If you had you would have seen that Keith and Drew who are the main people who post on this site have indeed been to IHOP, spent $100.00s of dollars in their material, have read it and searched the scriptures and have seen that what may be posted on the web site of IHOP and what is said and taught are two different things. They know many of the people personally at IHOP and in fact see nothing wrong with 24/7 prayer but have an issue on the basic scriptural premise that it is build on. (There are many other scriptural issues on top of that) They have used scripture upon scripture to show the error in the theology and doctrine.
You have mentioned in several of your comments that those of us who are posting don’t seem to know what we are talking about because we didn’t have first hand experience with the ministry or looked at the IHOP site. Or that we have some emotionally driven reason for what we are commenting on. That is further from the truth.
Let me ask you a question. If you were in a situation where you were being led into this idea of 24/7 prayer and began to utilize the IHOP ministry as a model, began to listen to the teachings of Mike Bickle and “Bridal Paradigm” with all intent to go forward with this ministry. Excited about the possibilities and outcomes of being involved in this idea of 24/7/Harp and Bowl model. Never questioned the idea that this was possibly based on poor theology and mis-interpreted scripture, attended their seminars and read some of their material and then one day, just what seemed to be out of the blue, had this thought or gut level feeling that something wasn’t right and after much prayer, believing that God has given you a warning, how would you interpret that? Would you think that maybe for some reason the Lord may have through the Gift of Discernment or a Word of Knowledge (you do believe in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit?) has spoken to you about the possibility that there was something amiss in where you were heading? Or would you think the enemy was planting a lie hoping that you would take hold of that lie and pull you away from something that could change you and possibly your church? Would you do all of the research you possibly could to see what is going on, to see what is behind the ministry you are moving in?
That was me. I had no agenda to put down this ministry! I had no reason to, but I have to say that after much prayer (and it was ago